HMCS Iroquois' woes (merged)

[Pat in Halifax]

She already is!

 

[jollyjacktar]

That will make turning her into a museum a bit more challenging then if they rob all the bits to keep ATH in the game.

 

[Navy_Pete]

That will make turning her into a museum a bit more challenging then if they rob all the bits to keep ATH in the game.

Due to past experiences with other ships, plus ITAR issues, that's not even in the cards.  She can't float if fully demilitarized.

 

[jollyjacktar]

I was thinking more along the lines of the engineering side of the house not the combat, which isn't my part ship, at any rate.

 

[Pat in Halifax]

Understood but if it comes down to it, the priority is to maintain ATH's operational state with one of only two 'parts stores'. An engine or generator missing here or there will mean nothing to a potential community looking at her as a Museum piece though provided the structure is sound.
I was on board yesterday and a seemingly pretty happy bunch although much uncertainty on the role of uniformed personnel beyond May. From a DC/engineering perspective, until further notice the ship's mandate is 'safe alongside' and enough crew will be retained to meet this. The side bar role is also a manning pool for ATH sailing shortages. As former IRO class sailors endorse/requalify to HAL class and the tempo and RegF manning of KIN class accelerates, trained IRO class personnel (current and fresh) will be hard to come by.

 

[jollyjacktar]

I would have expected no less when it comes to ATH.  I was more surprised at the talk of turning IRO into a floating museum somewhere.  Not sure if she would have been the best choice.  I would have preferred a steamer saved as they were special in their day.

As for the happy faces.  Who wouldn't be, with a sea pay "shore bilet"? 

 

[Pat in Halifax]

I am pretty certain SDA will cease 'shortly'.
Plus, yesterday was the world famous "IROQUOIS burger" Wednesday so that was part of the reason for all the smiles! (And, NO! That is not why I was on board!)

Interesting roads ahead as this one will be quite different from any divestments done in the past. Hoping to know a little more in the New Year.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

It cost around 1.2 million to strip potential pcb contaminated wire from HMCS Annapolis and then another million to remove the insulation that contained various odds and ends. That was to make her clean enough to sink.

 

[Good2Golf]

It cost around 1.2 million to strip potential pcb contaminated wire from HMCS Annapolis and then another million to remove the insulation that contained various odds and ends. That was to make her clean enough to sink.

Honest question here, would a ship destined to be a museum need the same level of remediation as one intended to serve as an artificial reef?

Regards
G2G

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Nowhere near.

There would be very limited remediation as far as "dangerous" products are concerned. So long as you don't touch the insulation (and the museum would likely want the ship to remain insulated) there are no concerns with it. As for the wiring and other electrical that can contain PCB, again the museum would likely want to keep them. As far as petroleum based products go, you would likely simply empty the tanks and then, without a cleanup, refill them with either water and fuel stabilizer or (for oil) with sorbent granular material and just "fix" any residue oil product in the tank for ever.

The most complex portion of the work , which would be done in any event of disposal, is removing all ammunition and piece of gear that can be considered classified technology.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The problem will be that the museum will last about 20 years and then the costs of keeping it floating on in safe enough condition will overwhelm them and then the government will have to deal with it. That's not to say it should not happen, but the government should have a long term plan to assist in upkeep and if they want to spend money to keep a shipyard afloat, maintaining heritage vessels is a decent idea and great training tool.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

You can keep it afloat, at great cost, of course (as in the case of HMCS SACKVILLE and HAIDA) or you can "land" the ship, as was done with HMCS BRAS D'OR and HMCS/S ONONDAGA.

Marine Industries has been closed of a long time now in Sorel. As a result, they have lots of wharfage that is not otherwise required. So it would be fairly easy to "land" the IROQUOIS by tying her alongside on the Richelieu River side (which is what they intend to do, if I recall the wharf numbers correctly), erect a complete cement wall all a around, plastify the outside of the hull and displace the water with packed sand. Voila, it is now earth bound and all that nasty hull maintenance / danger from shipboard fires / jittery museum goers are taken care of once and for all at a fairly cheap cost.

You can even cut out side entrances in the hull to make for much easier access to the various decks from external properly "civilian" sized stairs.

 

[quadrapiper]

The problem will be that the museum will last about 20 years and then the costs of keeping it floating on in safe enough condition will overwhelm them and then the government will have to deal with it. That's not to say it should not happen, but the government should have a long term plan to assist in upkeep and if they want to spend money to keep a shipyard afloat, maintaining heritage vessels is a decent idea and great training tool.

From my corner of the service, a "preserved" vessel would be of great value to sea cadet corps.

Would there be any value to the Naval Reserve in such a vessel?

 

[bLUE fOX]

While with RCSCC LION in Hamilton, we made regular use of HMCS HAIDA which was docked right across the road behind HMCS STAR. To the best of my knowledge, the reserves made little if any use of it. I would think that the reserves would get the same use out of such a ship as cadets. Limited damage control training, practicing line handling and light jack stays, and maybe some other basic shipboard functions. My experience with HAIDA, SACKVILLE and BRAS D'OR is that engines are either disabled or missing so even as a dock side stationary engine room trainer, I wouldn't think IROQUOIS would be of much use.

 

[Occam]

The most complex portion of the work , which would be done in any event of disposal, is removing all ammunition and piece of gear that can be considered classified technology.

I'm pretty sure she's already been deammunitioned.  Removing classified gear would be pretty easy, actually.  Now getting rid of anything that's Controlled Goods, however...that's going to be pretty painful and will leave a lot of spaces empty.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I was thinking more along the lines of the engineering side of the house not the combat, which isn't my part ship, at any rate.

There's a surprising number of ITAR parts in the MSE side as well; some of it was cutting edge in the 1960s I guess!  Plus a lot of common fasterners, valves, pumps etc that happen to be used on fancy whizbangs as well that got caught under the 'ITAR the whole system' CYA approach.

The big issue the americans have with ITAR is that there is no 'expiry date' so it's a huge amount of workload to handle, hence why they are reducing what they actually consider ITAR down to something probably close to the original intent, but still have to go and get individual items taken off the list, which will probably take decades.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Actually, all four IRO are from before ITAR came into effect and, even originally, had very little in terms of US content.

Other than the missiles and their fire control or the Phalanx, they have very limited use of US technology for which we are covered by ITAR. That is actually the very reason Canada tends to use European electronics when we can nowadays.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I've worked on developing the list of all CG onboard the IRO class; there are many line items where they are Controlled goods - ITAR.  Some of them are original to build (ie pre trump).  You'd be surprised how pervasive it is. A lot of it for us we don't notice because of the Canadian exclusions.

EU stuff comes with it's own restrictions as well; it's not necessarily any better then US origin.  ITAR is less onerous then people think once you understand the system, but it is painful to try and have something that obviously shouldn't have been cataloged as ITAR (like common fasterners) changed.

The plus side is US defence contractors noticed a big hit, as people try and avoid it.  It's been working through the US DoS for a couple of years, but they are limiting it back to a more sane level of just the equipment specific to weapons, ammunition, etc.

The other wrinkle for becoming a museum is the PCB regulations changed a few years ago, so we aren't allowed to transfer anything with PCBs outside of their cables and control cabinets.  So remediation would be required, although not to the same extent as for an artificial reef or a target.  It gets pretty complicated pretty quickly.

 

[Occam]

ITAR deals with the import/export of items from the USA.  The problems more likely to be encountered with turning one of these ships into museums deals more with Controlled Goods (as defined under Canadian legislation) aboard them, and the requirement to prevent access to Controlled Goods to unauthorized persons.

I've worked on developing the list of all CG onboard the IRO class; there are many line items where they are Controlled goods - ITAR.  Some of them are original to build (ie pre trump).  You'd be surprised how pervasive it is. A lot of it for us we don't notice because of the Canadian exclusions.

When items were reviewed in anticipation of Canada's required compliance date with US regulations for Controlled Goods, if they hadn't previously been challenged, they were assigned a Demilitarization Code (DMC) of D or F, indicating they were Controlled Goods.  That was to ensure that CG weren't inadvertently disposed of as regular scrap.  The only way to have the DMC changed to A or Q (not CG) was to challenge the DMC of that item.  Many of my NSNs remain unjustified (not challenged)...we simply don't have the time to devote to doing them all at the same time.  As items come up for disposal, we challenge the DMC then.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Bumped with the latest -- wanted:  someone to take 'er apart:

... The Department of National Defence has a requirement for the safe disposal of an Iroquois-class guided missile destroyer (DDG) that has reached the end of its operational life, the former Her Majestys Canadian Ships (HMCS) Iroquois. The contractor will be required to prepare the ship for transfer, transfer it to the Approved Site, demilitarize the Controlled Goods, return the museum material, and subsequently dismantle (dispose/recycle) the vessels in an efficient and environmentally responsible manner that is conforming to Canadian Laws and the terms of the contract ...

Dismantling specs (65 pg PDF with lotsa drawings/diagrams) here (via dropbox.com).