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HMCS Iroquois' woes (merged)

Hull condition surveys are an ongoing process over a vessels life, and with IRO at 42 years old this should come to no surprise that hull issues will come up  (in this case a a 48M PM hull survey routine is still awaiting completion).  With the pay-off of the IROQUOIS expected sometime early 2015, the balance must be struck with how much does the gov't want to get out of this asset before divestment and amount of resources/financials (taking into consideration current fiscal restraints) required to have the platform ready to sail for the navy's requirements until divestment.

I am curious though who set off the media for get this out, but one can only hold the cat in the bag on this for only so long, considering most of the goodies on this are in DRMIS.  I am only speculating... sometimes a ship not sailing leads to a FOIA request from local/national media outets.
 
When FOIA requests only cost the person making the request the princely sum of $5....there are plenty that get submitted just on the hopes of "uncovering" something.  Seems like a fair return on their investment.  $5 and a bit of time to submit each request while the department involved spends a month or so rounding up, vetting and sending off the info.  Our tax dollars in action.
 
The $5 only covers up to 5 hrs of searching and about 2" of copying. After that the price goes up according to a schedule.

    7. (1) Subject to subsection 11(6) of the Act, a person who makes a request for access to a record shall pay

        (a) an application fee of $5 at the time the request is made;

        (b) where applicable, a fee for reproduction of the record or part thereof to be calculated in the following manner:

            (i) for photocopying a page with dimensions of not more than 21.5 cm by 35.5 cm, $0.20 per page,

            (ii) for microfiche duplication, non-silver, $0.40 per fiche,

            (iii) for 16 mm microfilm duplication, non-silver, $12 per 30.5 m roll,

            (iv) for 35 mm microfilm duplication, non-silver, $14 per 30.5 m roll,

            (v) for microform to paper duplication, $0.25 per page, and

            (vi) for magnetic tape-to-tape duplication, $25 per 731.5 m reel; and

        (c) where the record or part thereof is produced in an alternative format, a fee, not to exceed the amount that would be charged for the record under paragraph (b),

            (i) of $.05 per page of braille, on paper with dimensions of not more than 21.5 cm by 35.5 cm,

            (ii) of $.05 per page of large print, on paper with dimensions of not more than 21.5 cm by 35.5 cm,

            (iii) of $2.50 per audiocassette, or

            (iv) of $2 per microcomputer diskette.

    (2) Where the record requested pursuant to subsection (1) is a non-computerized record, the head of the government institution may, in addition to the fee prescribed by paragraph (1)(a), require payment in the amount of $2.50 per person per quarter hour for every hour in excess of five hours that is spent by any person on search and preparation.

    (3) Where the record requested pursuant to subsection (1) is produced from a machine readable record, the head of the government institution may, in addition to any other fees, require payment for the cost of production and programming calculated in the following manner:

        (a) $16.50 per minute for the cost of the central processor and all locally attached devices; and

        (b) $5 per person per quarter hour for time spent on programming a computer.

    SOR/86-454, s. 1;
    SOR/92-687, s. 1.
 
A/OPS, May 2013:

... the design of Canada's new ships is based upon a Norwegian vessel whose design Ottawa has already bought for just $5 million.
mi-norwegian-ship300

The KV Svalbard, an offshore patrol vessel belonging to the Norwegian Coast Guard, is the parent design for Canada's Arctic offshore patrol ships. It was built for about one-third of what Canada is paying just to design, not build, a similar ship. (Marcus Bengtsson/Wikipedia)

The Norwegian ship, the Svalbard, was designed and built for less than $100 million in 2002...

Although Irving will manage the design project in Nova Scotia, it has subcontracted the actual production of final blueprints to a Danish firm, OMT. Seventy Danish ship architects will work on those.

The job of designing the systems integration is going to Lockheed Martin and the propulsion system will be designed by General Electric, both U.S. companies...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/shipbuilding-contract-holds-250m-mystery-1.1300816

Mark
Ottawa
 
CSCs--gov't still deciding on how to do the design:

Procurement Models for Surface Combatants
http://www.frontline-defence.com/Defence/index_archives.php?page=2110

Mark
Ottawa
 
Chief Stoker said:
From what I understand the source of the cracking has come from when during TRUMP the Que yard scalloped cut pieces from their keel weakening it to allow the installation of the water compensated fuel system. These cracks have existed since and have been continuously monitored and repaired. if there is now a operational limitation placed on the max sea state the ship is allowed to operate in then its pretty serious. I suspect this may be a temporary restriction until an comprehensive assessment is done and repairs may be made.

Not sure where that rumour started but that's simply not true.  Steel that cycles through bending fatigues and eventually forms cracks.  Ships are made of steel and are always bending.  43 year old hulls have lots of fatigue, so cracks happen.  Some cracks (like weather deck or main strucutral girders) are show stoppers.  Some minor cracks in secondary/tertiary structure aren't.  As long as they aren't growing, you don't necessarily have to do anything other then keep an eye on them.  Really not a big deal or all that unusual in an old vessel.  Or a newer vessel.
 
Navy_Pete said:
Not sure where that rumour started but that's simply not true.  Steel that cycles through bending fatigues and eventually forms cracks.  Ships are made of steel and are always bending.  43 year old hulls have lots of fatigue, so cracks happen.  Some cracks (like weather deck or main strucutral girders) are show stoppers.  Some minor cracks in secondary/tertiary structure aren't.  As long as they aren't growing, you don't necessarily have to do anything other then keep an eye on them.  Really not a big deal or all that unusual in an old vessel.  Or a newer vessel.

Apparently the Swedish high speed cats had welders on board to keep up with the cracking for the first few years.
 
Navy_Pete said:
Not sure where that rumour started but that's simply not true.  Steel that cycles through bending fatigues and eventually forms cracks.  Ships are made of steel and are always bending.  43 year old hulls have lots of fatigue, so cracks happen.  Some cracks (like weather deck or main structural girders) are show stoppers.  Some minor cracks in secondary/tertiary structure aren't.  As long as they aren't growing, you don't necessarily have to do anything other then keep an eye on them.  Really not a big deal or all that unusual in an old vessel.  Or a newer vessel.

It was told to me by a Chief Hull tech no was on ATH during TRUMP, I guess he may be lying. Its not unusual for cracking in superstructures or hulls to occur. It occurred to the steamers quite frequently.
 
Ive seen hull stress monitoring systems installed on older vessels, presumably for the same reason, metal fatigue. Its just another result of an aging fleet.
 
Chief Stoker said:
It was told to me by a Chief Hull tech no was on ATH during TRUMP, I guess he may be lying. Its not unusual for cracking in superstructures or hulls to occur. It occurred to the steamers quite frequently.

It's not that there wasn't structural work done during TRUMP, but have done a lot of work in the last five years that involved looking at the construction/TRUMP drawings of the uptakes specifically, and the changes in the uptakes started about two feet off the deck.  There were some modifications to the exhaust trunking below that relating to the cruise engine mods, but that was pretty minor (relatively). 

Maybe a case of rumour becoming legend becoming facts after long enough (like AFFF being corrosive)?

Have heard from a few people that in their final years on a few steamers you could see the sky through various cracks sometimes when the ship was in rough seas, so we're still quite a bit better off then that!

 
Hmm without knowing what, where and how much they found, hard to tell, but looks at least like it will be a drydock job

HMCS Iroquois indefinitely sidelined after rust found in warship’s hull  http://www.news1130.com/2014/05/07/hmcs-iroquois-indefinitely-sidelined-after-rust-found-in-warships-hull/

HALIFAX – The Royal Canadian Navy has lost the use of one of its warships on the East Coast after rust was found in its hull.

HMCS Iroquois was tied up in Halifax about two weeks ago and will not sail until a complete assessment is done on the air defence vessel.

Cmdr. Jay Harwood says it’s not clear how long that will take, but it leaves the fleet further diminished as more than a dozen of its vessels undergo regular maintenance, modernization and repairs.

Harwood says the rust problems were found in a machinery space on the vessel in mid-April during a routine inspection ordered after cracks were discovered on the 42-year-old ship in February.

He says the navy will have to decide whether to spend money to repair the aging command and control destroyer, which is due to be retired in a few years.

This latest problem has forced the navy to juggle some of its assets and pull Iroquois out of scheduled operations, including one last week in Norfolk, Va.

Note to readers: This is a corrected story. A previous version said HMCS Iroquois was 40 years old.
 
I wonder how safe Canadians would feel if they realized over half our navy is in dry dock for repairs/upgrades and not keeping our waters safe.
 
MilEME09 said:
I wonder how safe Canadians would feel if they realized over half our navy is in dry dock for repairs/upgrades and not keeping our waters safe.

I'm willing to bet that many of our fellow citizens aren't even aware we have a navy and there are those who do who couldn't care less.
 
MilEME09 said:
I wonder how safe Canadians would feel if they realized over half our navy is in dry dock for repairs/upgrades and not keeping our waters safe.

Most of my old high school friends think that the Navy exists to assist the Coast Guard in SAR and FishPats...  Only when they see TOR and REG in the news for drug busts do they say "Oh, we do that too?"  :facepalm:

If only they knew what we are supposed to be here for...
 
It wasn't all that long ago there were articles questioning why we even needed a Navy and an Air Force of the (small) size we do when we can just buy drones to bo the job cheaper.  For the average John Q Public the fact ships are down for repairs will, I suspect, cause more concern over the money that must be spent to repair then over any lack of operational capability.
 
Rusting HMCS Iroquois remains tied up: 'she will not sail'

Alison Auld, The Canadian Press
Published Monday, June 23, 2014 7:13AM EDT

HALIFAX -- The Royal Canadian Navy has decided to keep one of its few destroyers tied up after assessing a string of rust patches on its hull and concluding it may not be safe to send out to sea.

Capt. Peter Ryan said naval engineers and architects reviewed the corrosion in an area that stretches between a couple of decks on HMCS Iroquois, which was sidelined in April after the rust was detected.

They are now trying to determine if the aging ship should be repaired or retired, leaving the navy fleet further diminished as more than a dozen other vessels undergo regular maintenance, modernization or repairs.

"They are looking at what they can consider for possible repair options ... (and) whether it can be fixed," Ryan said in an interview.

"Until they can figure out what to do for repair options, she will not sail."

He said the destroyer will be used for training until the navy determines its fate.

Images and video taken by divers and obtained by The Canadian Press through access to information legislation show more than a half dozen rust spots on the exterior of the ship and inside in an area behind the solid ballast. Many appear to be a few inches in length.

Another photo from the mezzanine deck indicates an average loss of thickness in the plate of up to 30 per cent and cautions that there is an "allowable loss" of only 20 per cent, according to the Naval Architecture and Material Engineering Non-Destructive Ultrasonic Inspection Report.

Ryan could not say how extensive the corrosion is or where it's exactly located, but said officials can't guarantee the ship or crew's safety so it won't leave the dock. He also couldn't say whether the navy has had to reassign other ships or withdraw from operations as a result of the problems with HMCS Iroquois.

Underwater video shows a swath of rust spots that appear to start about 0.6 metres below the waterline.

Cmdr. Jay Harwood, who oversees the fleet's engineering state, said in May that fixing the 42-year-old ship before it is due to be decommissioned might prove too expensive.

Analysts have said the loss removes a vital asset and certain capabilities from the fleet. The destroyers serve as command and control vessels, but are also the only naval ships that have long-range air defence missile systems.

With HMCS Iroquois unavailable and its sister ship, HMCS Algonquin, undergoing repairs from an accident in February, the navy has only one destroyer at the ready.

The navy is also without many of its Halifax-class frigates, which are undergoing a lengthy modernization program to add radar and command and control systems, while upgrading radar and missile capabilities.

This latest problem comes after fatigue cracks were found on HMCS Iroquois in February when the ship was in Boston. An engineering team travelled to the U.S. to inspect it and deemed it safe to return to its home port in Halifax.

Officials acknowledge that the rust problem could lead to the early decommissioning of the ship, which is due to be retired in the next few years and before any successor ships are in place.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/rusting-hmcs-iroquois-remains-tied-up-she-will-not-sail-1.1881404
 
There WAS a rumour ....This from the Halifax Shipping News blog:
I have heard a rumour that HMCS Iroquois' final sail past will occur tomorrow (today 7 Nov 2014). Due to cracks in her structure, she is due to be de-commisioned, and has already be de-amunitioned.

If anyone has more details, Please email Info@halifaxshippingnews.ca

UPDATE: It appears there will be no sailpast. A Call to QHM revelealed they had no knowledge of it, and a former crew member emailed to say he talked to a current crew member who said there will not be one.
 
This from the Shipfax shipping news blog out of Halifax ....
Although a paying off sail past is not in the cards for HMCS Iroquois - the government does not want to call undue notice the occasion of her decommissioning - there will be a dockside ceremony sometime this winter. Among the invited guests are members of La Corporation du site historique maritime de Sorel-Tracy. That group hopes to provide a new home for Iroquois once it is retired.

With the support of the city, and the promise of berth#2 on the Richelieu River, the group is looking to have the ship in place and open to the public in 2017 for the 375th anniversary of the founding of the town.
The ambitious plan would have as much as possible of the ship's naval equipment intact (but disarmed) so that visitors could see it in its ready state ....

A bit more, from earlier this month, from the back-yard media (in Google English - original in French here):
The chances of reducing the air defense destroyer HMCS Iroquois in Sorel-Tracy look better than ever.

It is believed that Martin Germain, one of the project sponsors, after meeting the second ranking officer of the Royal Canadian Navy, Admiral against Gilles Couturier.

Guest Friends of goodwill to talk to more than 200 people of challenges faced by the Canadian Navy, the latter did not fail to mention that the Iroquois, built in 1970 at Marine Industries Ltd., is currently docked in Halifax since we had to repair a crack in its superstructure.

"The useful life of such a boat is 25 to 30 years. The more it will seagoing more hull will be affected. It is now time to remove this well-built ship class to replace them with very different combat ships. "

2017

Recall that Messrs. Guy Durand, Denis St-Martin, René Cournoyer and Martin Germain formed the "Corporation of Maritime Historic Site Sorel-Tracy" that would acquiring the boat.

They want and highlight a witness ship shipbuilding and industrial heritage Sorel and the work of thousands of Sorel assigned to shipbuilding over the years.

In early October, they got also a unanimous commitment of council Sorelois the destroyer will be moored at one of the municipal wharf - Wharf # 2 or Richelieu dock ....
 
There is talk that she would be towed over to NAD as a floating part source for ATH.
 
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