Hillier says - Canada at higher risk of attack.
- Thread starter Nielsen_Noetic
- Start date
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 230
daniel h. said:
What debate? I didn't realise there was any debating about who attacked us on 9/11.
Not sure about Britain, but Australia was targeted with the Bali bombings in nightclub(s?) killed over 200 most of them Australian tourists, also one of their embassys was bombed, in I think (but may be wrong) Indonesia.
http://edition.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2002/bali/
from darkness lite
Member
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 210
daniel h. said:
Some facts: Australia was attacked in Bali by an Al Qaida affiliated terrorist group;
The British Embassy was bombed in Turkey last year(?) by an Al Qaida linked group;
In Nov 2002, Bin Laden personally named Canada, along with the US, UK, Australia,etc as legitimate targets in his eyes;
For the one who wants a credible source regarding the risk to Canada read the following link:
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/05/06/canada/csis040506
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
Jonsey said:
I think we are at risk. heck we have the largest unprotected borders in the world. But I think the risk is somewhat exagerrated, especially by military and intelligence spokespeople so that they can increase their funding *flame suit on*
I mean if the US just stops fiddling with affairs in the middle east, we wouldn't have terrorists threatening to attack us.
The only reason why I think we may be at risk is because we have close ties with the US. But even that is a stretch. Every country in the world has ties with the US (well most). All those countries that got bombed participated in Iraq. Canada not participating sends a strong message to terrorists: "We don't follow US foreign policy". Unlike UK, Australia, Spain, etc.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
Bo said:
Ahhh yes, I believe that attitude has come up in the past. Prime minister Chamberlin I believe had the same attitude towards Hitler. Appeasement...yes that is the way to go with these people (huge sarcasm). If we don't meddle with their plans of subjugating their population, killing because of ethnic differences, striving for WMD they will leave us alone even though they have voiced definite disdain for our way of life. Heck, that makes total sense to me. ( I can not stress how much sarcasm is dripping through my fingers at this point and all over the keyboard)
GF
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
From the Globe and Mail web site today.
Avian flu candidate for terror weapon?
By HELEN BRANSWELL
Tuesday, March 8, 2005
Updated at 9:44 PM EST
Canadian Press
Toronto - The military's intelligence arm has warned the federal government that avian influenza could be used as a weapon of bioterrorism, a heavily censored report suggests.
It also reveals that military planners believe a naturally occurring flu pandemic may be imminent.
The report, entitled Recent Human Outbreaks of Avian Influenza and Potential Biological Warfare Implications, was obtained under the Access to Information Act by The Canadian Press.
It was prepared by the J2 Directorate of Strategic Intelligence, a secretive branch of National Defence charged with producing intelligence for the government.
The report outlines in broad terms the methods that could be used to develop a manmade strain of influenza capable of triggering a human flu pandemic.
It notes a method called "passaging,â ? while not entirely predictable, could be a "potentially highly effectiveâ ? way to push a virus to develop virulence.
"Such forced antigenic shifts could be attempted in a biological weapons program,â ? says the 15-page report, dated Dec. 8, 2004.
Passaging involves the repeated cycling of strains of a virus through generations of a species of animals or through cell culture. The process can be used to either ratchet up or dial down the virulence of a virus, depending on which of the ensuing offspring - the mild or the severe - are selected in each cycle for the next passage.
There is debate in the community of infectious disease experts whether influenza would make a good bioterrorism agent. For one thing, once released, the virus would not discriminate between friend or foe. Terrorists and their supporters would be as likely to fall ill and die as those they hoped to target.
But if the ultimate goal is panic, social disruption and economic losses, influenza would be a good choice, says Dr. Brian Ward, a virologist at McGill University in Montreal.
"To me it's one of the most logical viruses to use. It doesn't have to be a really bad one to throw a huge wrench,â ? Dr. Ward said.
"I mean, if you want to hurt the world's economy, that's an awfully good way.â ?
Canada estimates the direct and indirect health-care costs alone of a mild flu pandemic would range from $10-billion to $24-billion. That doesn't start to count societal costs such as lost productivity because of mass illness or the impact on vulnerable industries such as airlines and tourism or the insurance sector that would be hit with business losses and death claims.
But influenza expert Dr. Earl Brown suggests that while flu makes a good theoretical bioterror agent, the reality of these "delicateâ ? viruses is that the task would be harder than it appears.
"Flu is a wimpy virus, which I think is the one knock against it. It doesn't persist in the environment (outside a human) very long,â ? says Dr. Brown, a University of Ottawa scientist who specializes in the evolution of influenza viruses.
"You have to infect people sort of straight away, otherwise it's going to die sitting around the environment.â ?
Dr. Brown, who has done expensive work on reassorting or mating flu viruses, says any virus bred to spread would have to meet several key criteria: it would need to jump the species barrier and have the ability both to transmit easily and cause severe disease if it did.
"If you want to see chaos and mayhem and you're not concerned about the backlash, then you just have to get to the biology. And right now nobody can do it,â ? Dr. Brown says.
"There's a good chance that you'd make something that just would burn out. It just wouldn't spread very well.â ?
The report also raises the spectre of a pandemic strain engineered in a laboratory using reverse genetics. That technically challenging process allows scientists to custom tailor a flu virus, taking genes from a virulent but not highly transmissible strain, for instance, and melding them with genes from a virus that transmits well from person to person.
The report notes this is a technique scientists have been using to try to decipher why the virus that caused the Spanish flu of 1918-1919 was so deadly. That pandemic, which may have claimed upwards of 50 million lives worldwide, was the worst in known history.
"It is feared that this process could be copied ... to produce a human viral strain similar to the 1918-1919 pandemic,â ? the report says.
It also theorizes that a naturally occurring pandemic may be imminent, unless rigorous measures are taken to contain the spread of the H5N1 avian flu strain that has been responsible for more than 45 deaths in Southeast Asia in the last 14 months.
The report says factors such as the region's inability to eradicate the virus and influenza's propensity to mutate rapidly "raises the possibility that a novel strain capable of efficient human-to-human transmission may arise in the near future, threatening Canadian operations worldwide.â ?
© Copyright 2005 Bell Globemedia Publishing Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Avian flu candidate for terror weapon?
By HELEN BRANSWELL
Tuesday, March 8, 2005
Updated at 9:44 PM EST
Canadian Press
Toronto - The military's intelligence arm has warned the federal government that avian influenza could be used as a weapon of bioterrorism, a heavily censored report suggests.
It also reveals that military planners believe a naturally occurring flu pandemic may be imminent.
The report, entitled Recent Human Outbreaks of Avian Influenza and Potential Biological Warfare Implications, was obtained under the Access to Information Act by The Canadian Press.
It was prepared by the J2 Directorate of Strategic Intelligence, a secretive branch of National Defence charged with producing intelligence for the government.
The report outlines in broad terms the methods that could be used to develop a manmade strain of influenza capable of triggering a human flu pandemic.
It notes a method called "passaging,â ? while not entirely predictable, could be a "potentially highly effectiveâ ? way to push a virus to develop virulence.
"Such forced antigenic shifts could be attempted in a biological weapons program,â ? says the 15-page report, dated Dec. 8, 2004.
Passaging involves the repeated cycling of strains of a virus through generations of a species of animals or through cell culture. The process can be used to either ratchet up or dial down the virulence of a virus, depending on which of the ensuing offspring - the mild or the severe - are selected in each cycle for the next passage.
There is debate in the community of infectious disease experts whether influenza would make a good bioterrorism agent. For one thing, once released, the virus would not discriminate between friend or foe. Terrorists and their supporters would be as likely to fall ill and die as those they hoped to target.
But if the ultimate goal is panic, social disruption and economic losses, influenza would be a good choice, says Dr. Brian Ward, a virologist at McGill University in Montreal.
"To me it's one of the most logical viruses to use. It doesn't have to be a really bad one to throw a huge wrench,â ? Dr. Ward said.
"I mean, if you want to hurt the world's economy, that's an awfully good way.â ?
Canada estimates the direct and indirect health-care costs alone of a mild flu pandemic would range from $10-billion to $24-billion. That doesn't start to count societal costs such as lost productivity because of mass illness or the impact on vulnerable industries such as airlines and tourism or the insurance sector that would be hit with business losses and death claims.
But influenza expert Dr. Earl Brown suggests that while flu makes a good theoretical bioterror agent, the reality of these "delicateâ ? viruses is that the task would be harder than it appears.
"Flu is a wimpy virus, which I think is the one knock against it. It doesn't persist in the environment (outside a human) very long,â ? says Dr. Brown, a University of Ottawa scientist who specializes in the evolution of influenza viruses.
"You have to infect people sort of straight away, otherwise it's going to die sitting around the environment.â ?
Dr. Brown, who has done expensive work on reassorting or mating flu viruses, says any virus bred to spread would have to meet several key criteria: it would need to jump the species barrier and have the ability both to transmit easily and cause severe disease if it did.
"If you want to see chaos and mayhem and you're not concerned about the backlash, then you just have to get to the biology. And right now nobody can do it,â ? Dr. Brown says.
"There's a good chance that you'd make something that just would burn out. It just wouldn't spread very well.â ?
The report also raises the spectre of a pandemic strain engineered in a laboratory using reverse genetics. That technically challenging process allows scientists to custom tailor a flu virus, taking genes from a virulent but not highly transmissible strain, for instance, and melding them with genes from a virus that transmits well from person to person.
The report notes this is a technique scientists have been using to try to decipher why the virus that caused the Spanish flu of 1918-1919 was so deadly. That pandemic, which may have claimed upwards of 50 million lives worldwide, was the worst in known history.
"It is feared that this process could be copied ... to produce a human viral strain similar to the 1918-1919 pandemic,â ? the report says.
It also theorizes that a naturally occurring pandemic may be imminent, unless rigorous measures are taken to contain the spread of the H5N1 avian flu strain that has been responsible for more than 45 deaths in Southeast Asia in the last 14 months.
The report says factors such as the region's inability to eradicate the virus and influenza's propensity to mutate rapidly "raises the possibility that a novel strain capable of efficient human-to-human transmission may arise in the near future, threatening Canadian operations worldwide.â ?
© Copyright 2005 Bell Globemedia Publishing Inc. All Rights Reserved.
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 410
Anyone know what the militaries role would be if a pandemic did come about natural or otherwise?
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
I can offer a perspective on a related (but not identical) topic.
During the preps for Y2K in LFCA we got involved with the Province of Ontario and the Ontario Hospital Association (?) on the whole issue of military medical assistance in a major emergency. The way it shook out (at least in 1999...) was that the greatest value the military would have to offer would be in the areas we traditionally do in any civil emergency: general support to the qualified and trained civilians who are dealing directly with the emergency.
Our ability then, (and I assume it is not too different now), to provide medcal resources directly to civilians, was limited by three factors. First, in a major emergency we needed our own integral medical resources to look after the health readiness of the force: in a case of a pandemic, this would be even more true. Second, we just didn't have the resources, period. In particular we lacked specialists. The Regular Force medcal system was undermanned and could generate only one major deployable medical asset: 1CFSH, which had to be manned on a contingency basis by robbing other CFMS units. The Bde Fd Ambs were small and were clearly needed to support the Bdes if they were deployed, especially if the civil medical system was stressed. The Res Med Coys (now Res Fd Ambs) were in far worse shape and had litle real medical value.
Finally (at that time-I don't know about 2005...) there was a legal issue about medical professionals who were not licensed by the Province providing planned and deliberate medical care in Ontario (as opposed to "Good Samaritan" medical care at the side of the road in extremis). That meant that there might be difficulty employing CFMS pers from outside the Province. Perhaps this could be waived in a emergency today.
So, to sum up, my guess is that we would be doing the general non-technical support role, while standing ready to assist with public order if that became necessary.
Cheers.
During the preps for Y2K in LFCA we got involved with the Province of Ontario and the Ontario Hospital Association (?) on the whole issue of military medical assistance in a major emergency. The way it shook out (at least in 1999...) was that the greatest value the military would have to offer would be in the areas we traditionally do in any civil emergency: general support to the qualified and trained civilians who are dealing directly with the emergency.
Our ability then, (and I assume it is not too different now), to provide medcal resources directly to civilians, was limited by three factors. First, in a major emergency we needed our own integral medical resources to look after the health readiness of the force: in a case of a pandemic, this would be even more true. Second, we just didn't have the resources, period. In particular we lacked specialists. The Regular Force medcal system was undermanned and could generate only one major deployable medical asset: 1CFSH, which had to be manned on a contingency basis by robbing other CFMS units. The Bde Fd Ambs were small and were clearly needed to support the Bdes if they were deployed, especially if the civil medical system was stressed. The Res Med Coys (now Res Fd Ambs) were in far worse shape and had litle real medical value.
Finally (at that time-I don't know about 2005...) there was a legal issue about medical professionals who were not licensed by the Province providing planned and deliberate medical care in Ontario (as opposed to "Good Samaritan" medical care at the side of the road in extremis). That meant that there might be difficulty employing CFMS pers from outside the Province. Perhaps this could be waived in a emergency today.
So, to sum up, my guess is that we would be doing the general non-technical support role, while standing ready to assist with public order if that became necessary.
Cheers.
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 410
You don't think we would be enforcing quartene zones and the like? Also what if base members got sick? I know there a lot of what if's but for me this is truely a frightening possibility.
R
Rushrules
Guest
Wasn't there an Anthrax scare after 9-11?? As well as plans for contaminating the food/water supplies. No tks, we can do that ourselves and not need any help from overseas. 
I do agree that Canadian interests are threatened by terrorists, but organized crime is by far the biggest threat. Busting grow ops has no impact on these criminals, since they're everywhere.
Terrorist cells have been operating since Canada was inhabited by natives eons ago, and this won't change by bringing "democracy" :
to another country.
As for overseas concerns, Bin Laden is a terrorist plain and simple, and has limited means to achieve his goals. Round 1 went to them when the US pulled out of Saudi Arabia. Round 2 is being played out in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I do agree that Canadian interests are threatened by terrorists, but organized crime is by far the biggest threat. Busting grow ops has no impact on these criminals, since they're everywhere.
Terrorist cells have been operating since Canada was inhabited by natives eons ago, and this won't change by bringing "democracy" :
to another country. As for overseas concerns, Bin Laden is a terrorist plain and simple, and has limited means to achieve his goals. Round 1 went to them when the US pulled out of Saudi Arabia. Round 2 is being played out in Iraq and Afghanistan.
- Reaction score
- 2
- Points
- 430
Bo said:
First question....yes. Soviets.
Second... any number of terrorist organizations, take your pick....we are known far and wide in thier circle as "The devil's little brother" or "Little Devil".
This stuff is real troops.
Regards
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 210
RN PRN said:
Yes - because refraining from interfering maliciously in the domestic politics of the Middle East the way the west has for over a century certainly is "appeasment" isn't it?
Lets get some perspective here and stop pretending to be innocent. Anyone even mildly versed in the history of the West in the Middle East shouldn't be at all shocked.
Torlyn said::
Must everything go back to the Liberals? I'm conservative myself, but this is getting a bit far afield, don't you think? Oh, and you may want to take a look at what the last conservative federal gv't did to the CF before you continue to bash the Liberals. Just a suggestion.
T
Indeed. I'm no huge fan of the liberals but it seems any and every thread is another excuse to whine about them.
- Reaction score
- 9,792
- Points
- 1,260
Glorified Ape said:
Question: Do you think arbitrarily leaving the Middle East will solve the problem (including Support for Israel) - or will it create an entire host of new problems which may be far worse in orders of magnitude.
No qualms here. Any attempts to place one as the "White Knight" in history is bound to be fraught with omission.
Just replace "Liberals" with "Government of the Day". I'm sure if the Conservatives or the NDP were in power, debate would naturally fall back to blaming them instead of the Grits.
Perhaps "Blaming the Government of the Day" is a form of logical fallacy (straw man)? That being said, they are the ones responsible for this sort of thing, aren't they?
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
CFL said:
The enforcement of quarantine zones is one of the things I had in mind when I made the comment about "public order". But even then, I could only see us being called out for that in a very extreme situation, since the message it would send would be quite frightening. I suppose that if a large city such as Vancouver was to be quarantined, it would strain police resources (especially if some of them became sick...) and we might be requested.
If our own people get sick, they would be reported to the local Provincial Officer of Health and my guess is that they would be handled according to the system set up by the Province, Health Canada, etc. The military just does not have the medical capacity to handle this on its own. Plus, if we do not cooperate with the disease control plan, we risk spreading it ourselves.
My question is: is avian flu spread from human to human, or bird to human? If the former, we could have a serious problem. If the latter, IMHO it would be much more manageable
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 210
Infanteer said:
Not at all. The point I was trying to make (maybe I should have been clearer) was that we're nowhere near innocent in the entire affair and while we can't be expected to just say "okay, do what you will", we do need to stop behaving as though we've had no hand in what has been dealt to us.
We have to do what we can to help the situation but we're going to go about with the wrong perspective if we keep speaking to ourselves as though we're innocent bystanders.
Indeed. Omission is something we seem to be very fond of, most especially in the instruction of our children in world history.
lol - We can add that to the list with "ex post facto" and "ad hoc ergo propter hoc" - "Blaming the Government of the Day: def: attributing causation to the present authorities, regardless of evidence" - maybe it should be first on the list, though we'll have to find some latin translation for it or it won't sound as hoytie-toytie.
You're right - governments are responsible much of the time. I think greater accountability might curb their willful idiocy to some extent but it may also lead to inaction and paralysis. That's a debate for another thread, though.
To get back to the topic at hand: interesting that of that "list of 5", we're the only ones that haven't suffered an attack. I'm not implying anything, it's just curious.
from darkness lite
Member
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 210
pbi said:
pbi
According to the World Health Org, Avian flu is currently spread from bird to human. The fear is this:
The 1918 pandemic that killed 20 million(?) was an avian flu that, over time, developed/adapted the ability to perform human-to-human transmission. The WHO believes this is what's going on right now, as more and more people catch bird flu, the virus will evolve, eventually leading to a pandemic.
This stuff can just give you the creeps....
cheers
Similar threads
