High Speed Train Coming?-split from boosting Canada’s military spending"

[Brad Sallows]

Interesting to say this and then can't seem to understand why we should actually get cracking. A huge part of why all infrastructure is expensive in North America is the lack of consistency in simply building. All learning is regularly lost. Instead of building two subway stations every year, we'll do a giant 10 station extension that takes a decade to build and then do nothing for another decade while all that talent, experience and institutional knowledge is lost.

And heck, this isn't even just infrastructure. Same mentality contributes to the CAF struggle with procurement.

Pity we can't assume away the reasons for costs. The costs still exist, so the capital and operating problems remain.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Weird how every other G7 country and a good chunk of developing countries don't think of HSR as vanities. Canadians must be uniquely smarter I guess.

The US is a G7 country and doesn't have a lot of HSR. The rest are Japan and in Europe. Hint: population.

 

[Brad Sallows]

If we're "broke" a lot of the discussions on here about defence spending are also moot. If we can't afford $5B/yr for a decade, paying $20B per year (and increasing) to meet the NATO target is going to be even more difficult.

Providing an alternative to satisfy needs already mostly accommodated by existing infrastructure isn't a self-evident high priority.

 

[lenaitch]

No organization is perfect. Nor is any project. But they've run GO better than it was in the past. And every year service actually does get a little more frequent, a little bit faster, a little more coverage, etc.

Mostly I don't see the validity of the dick measuring and whining about the Europeans being here. I'd buy those arguments if Canadian rail talent had actually turned GO into a proper suburban rail system. They didn't. Now they are whining that Deutsche Bahn has been brought in, to take over? Bitch please....

No doubt it is, but it almost seems sometimes that there project management suffers from ADHD; lots of stuff started, lots of activity, but little seems to be done in a linear fashion or get finished. There are no doubt external factors at play that the public can't see. The one I will get them credit for was the West Toronto Junction 'fly-over'. A complex project that seemed to go to plan and now operating. On the other hand, the Eglinton LRT has been under construction since 2011 and Metrolinx has stopped giving completion projections. It's this kind of stuff that sours their image.

 

[lenaitch]

If HSR requires perpetual subsidy, costs will never be recouped. It is merely a way to give money to a particular group of people, or - as often happens to be the case - to give high-end commuters a more pleasant experience. Transportation infrastructure supports economic activity, but when one kind replaces another and what mostly happens is a shift in ridership, it's difficult to prove economic spin-offs are increased rather than simply shifted as well.

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find any passenger rail or transit system in the world that is not subsidized. A quick search didn't turn up any.

Too bad that CN/CP controls pretty much all of the existing railway network and relegates Via Rail to an inferior status. When they basically abandoned passenger service along with countless railway spurs, they ended up playing a significant role in helping to dis-unite this huge country.

Branch rail, freight and passenger, was abandoned because it became unprofitable and small town industry that relied on it has dried up.

VIA alone didn't cut back passenger service, the government did, all of them.

We should be thankful that North America evolved to move freight by rail. One of the advantages of Europe is that most points in the land mass are not far from a sea port because of the way the Baltic and Mediterranean/Black Seas enter into the continent, which lessens the quantity of trucks they have to use to move goods.

Europe has no where near the volume of rail freight that we do. When a passenger train has to wait for a freight train that is much slower and 3-4 km long, that's tough on scheduling.

Exactly. If we really want to go this route, a lot of countries actually toll most of their freeways.

But really, a bunch of past scoping studies have found that any Ontario-Quebec HSR has enough population and GDP to at least be operationally profitable. Recovery on capital invested is more questionable. That's exactly why this design phase exists. They have to lay out detailed COAs that show the government what different levels of service can be built, at what cost and what subsidy. One of their mandates is to actually look at financing alternatives to the feds. Could just be, for example, infrastructure bonds with federal guarantees to lower the rates.

I believe VIA's current 'corridor service' (Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal) is operationally profitable, or at least break-even. It helps support the rest of their subsidized service.

 

[lenaitch]

Okay Boomer.

Man. Quick way to lose an audience.

 

[Blackadder1916]

They dream about this shit even in Alberta. (or at least some do)

Passenger rail

Alberta is developing a Passenger Rail Master Plan that will serve as the foundation to advance passenger rail in the province.

www.alberta.ca

https://majorprojects.alberta.ca/details/Calgary-Banff-Rail-Link/4492

Edmonton - Calgary High Speed Rail Line

Prairie Link Rail Partnership (EllisDon & AECOM) is proposing to build a high speed rail link between Edmonton and Calgary. The project would allow passengers and freight to travel between the two cities at speeds up to 400 km/h. On June 8, 2021, Prairie Link Rail Partnership announced an MOU...

majorprojects.alberta.ca

https://majorprojects.alberta.ca/details/Edmonton-Calgary-Hyperloop-Project-Test-Track/10570

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find any passenger rail or transit system in the world that is not subsidized. A quick search didn't turn up any.

It's almost all subsidized. HSR sort of reminds me of the Concorde though. It will become something rich people use, a novelty of sorts, and nothing more.

Branch rail, freight and passenger, was abandoned because it became unprofitable and small town industry that relied on it has dried up.

VIA alone didn't cut back passenger service, the government did, all of them.

Correct, branch rail was sold to shortlines because it mostly wasn't worth the time. The big money is in bulk and intermodal shipping.

Passenger Service itself used to be way more prevalent. 20 years ago I used to be able to take daily service to either Montreal or Halifax. That's been reduced over time significantly.

Europe has no where near the volume of rail freight that we do. When a passenger train has to wait for a freight train that is much slower and 3-4 km long, that's tough on scheduling.

It's apples and oranges comparing the two. The only place in Europe that is even remotely comparable is Russia.

We are talking on average +1 million tons per day is moved across the Country. That's the equivalent of around +40,000 transport trucks, per day.

I believe VIA's current 'corridor service' (Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal) is operationally profitable, or at least break-even. It helps support the rest of their subsidized service.

Corridor Service is profitable, the rest of VIAs routes lose money. The train that runs from Sudbury to White River year round, breaks even one day a year: Canada Day.

 

[dapaterson]

The US is a G7 country and doesn't have a lot of HSR. The rest are Japan and in Europe. Hint: population.

You mean like the population in the Quebec City / Windsor corridor?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

You mean like the population in the Quebec City / Windsor corridor?

Except the folks in that corridor don't need to sacrifice a new-born to get a parking spot, therefore they buy vehicles.

 

[OldSolduer]

The US is a G7 country and doesn't have a lot of HSR. The rest are Japan and in Europe. Hint: population.

More of population density. I think (reasonably certain) there are more people per square mile in Europe than NA.

 

[OldSolduer]

Okay Boomer.

I'm pretty secure in my identity as a Canadian that a choo-choo is not going to change that. But I guess you're a bit more fragile.

That's pretty insulting. If you want to have a conversation like an adult behave like one.

 

[dapaterson]

Except the folks in that corridor don't need to sacrifice a new-born to get a parking spot, therefore they buy vehicles.

Oddly enough, if you drink a beer while on the train between Toronto and Ottawa the OPP are much less upset than if you do the same while driving.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Okay Boomer.

I'm pretty secure in my identity as a Canadian that a choo-choo is not going to change that. But I guess you're a bit more fragile.

Don't be an ass. You have made some valid points that unfortunately are lost when you lower yourself to this standard.

 

[PrairieFella]

The US is a G7 country and doesn't have a lot of HSR. The rest are Japan and in Europe. Hint: population.

Rome to Venice is about 550 km and only has a few million people (roughly 4ish million) in the corridor yet the Trenitalia HSR line is wildly successful, frequent, cheap and crosses extremely adverse terrain.

Windsor to la Ville de Québec is roughly double the distance but over 4x the population and flat.

How can the poorer Italians build such a project? Our national project never ends and this can improve the lives, at least marginally for almost half of Canada. Its a slam dunk. Unfortunately though, the fuck you, I got mine attitude is reigning in this thread.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

More of population density. I think (reasonably certain) there are more people per square mile in Europe than NA.

Actually there are none in Europe, but their density per square kilometer is something else.

Just kidding. However, that is why you look for density in specific sections of N.A. if you want to study the feasibility of HSR. The density in the Quebec Windsor corridor, as described above, is pretty close to the one in Spain. And in the USA, the density in the Boston-New York-Philadelphia-Baltimore-Washington compares quite favourably with European population densities. It's only the American love affair with their (humongous) cars and their penchant for super-multi-lanes highways, paired with the fact that it would be a multi-state undertaking that would involve so much politics (in view of the amount of money at stake) to adopt in the Senate and congress that its near impossible to achieve (can you imagine all the riders in the appropriation bill?)

 

[OldSolduer]

Unfortunately though, the fuck you, I got mine attitude is reigning in this thread.

Not at all. If it wasn't announced blatantly by our dear esteemed PM - who is resigning - it wouldn't appear to be a bribe to Ontario and Quebec, and by extension his pals in SNC Lavalin. If he were genuine he would have come up with similar things for every province, not just the two who actually elect the GoC.

 

[PrairieFella]

Actually there are none in Europe, but their density per square kilometer is something else.

Just kidding. However, that is why you look for density in specific sections of N.A. if you want to study the feasibility of HSR. The density in the Quebec Windsor corridor, as described above, is pretty close to the one in Spain. And in the USA, the density in the Boston-New York-Philadelphia-Baltimore-Washington compares quite favourably with European population densities. It's only the American love affair with their (humongous) cars and their penchant for super-multi-lanes highways, paired with the fact that it would be a multi-state undertaking that would involve so much politics (in view of the amount of money at stake) to adopt in the Senate and congress that its near impossible to achieve (can you imagine all the riders in the appropriation bill?)

I imagine the Americans will be wishing they didn't gut their passenger rail when the bill comes due for the interstates. It's a looming crisis that isn't talked about enough and lots of maintenance has been deferred for a decade plus already. Mega highways are an absolute disaster that were extremely poorly advised, especially since most of them just induce demand and expanding them doesn't actually improve traffic times. What's needed is mode shift away from extremely wasteful single occupant motor vehicles.

 

[dapaterson]

Not at all. If it wasn't announced blatantly by our dear esteemed PM - who is resigning - it wouldn't appear to be a bribe to Ontario and Quebec, and by extension his pals in SNC Lavalin. If he were genuine he would have come up with similar things for every province, not just the two who actually elect the GoC.

Sixty percent of the population in those to provinces.

Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba combined have less people than Quebec.

 

[PrairieFella]

Not at all. If it wasn't announced blatantly by our dear esteemed PM - who is resigning - it wouldn't appear to be a bribe to Ontario and Quebec, and by extension his pals in SNC Lavalin. If he were genuine he would have come up with similar things for every province, not just the two who actually elect the GoC.

I'm sorry but that's a complete fallacy. We're both good Manitoba boys and obviously we both understand that HSR doesn't make sense here. The Brandon to Winnipeg corridor doesn't even come close to the population of Montréal for example. But I don't begrudge my fellow countrymen to the East because this project makes sense and can only exist in dense corridors. This could improve their lives and indirectly improve my life since it's projected to boost our GDP in a noticeable fashion. It's a nation building slam dunk. We need nation building now more than ever and hell, this can help keep our steel and concrete industry alive with the incoming economic warfare from the Orange Lad. If we're being completely introspective here, I'm almost certain if Prime Minister Poilievre announced this this thread would be far less hostile but partisanship is taking precedence here. We all have our biases and that is often deserved by the Liberals, but that doesn't mean they can't be right from time to time. This is a time they're right and they brought the best partner possible on board for it (SNCF).