Hamas invaded Israel 2023

[brihard]

Then you condemn both sides to a endless war, in this there is no even a half decent solution and Hamas has effectively removed any cooperative concept off the table for a very, very long time. I don't know any other country that would willingly accept being cut in half, with only a 13km wide corridor to sustain the connection between the two halves of the country. To put that in perspective, Hamas manged to penetrate some 18km into Israel on Oct 7th.
If I was the PM of Israel, I would offer a good chunk of money to any Palestinian that wants to emigrate from the WB with their family, with the knowledge that it's a 1 way trip. If I was the POTUS I would quietly support that and pressure Muslim countries to accept them and give them a realistic avenue to citizenship.

You’re contending that Israel cannot avoid ‘endless war’ unless they ethnically cleanse the West Bank?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

You’re contending that Israel cannot avoid ‘endless war’ unless they ethnically cleanse the West Bank?

Sadly yes. The Palestinians show no signs of wanting to have any sort of economic or otherwise relation with Israel. They have had a chance to build something in Gaza, except they choose to throw away their future for 1 day of glory. How do you have peace with that mentality and that mentality would immediately take hold in the WB if given anymore anatomy. Also if Israel waits till the palestinian population grows further, the problem becomes much more dire, and you be looking at a Gaza response 2.0, but on a much wider scale. If Israel "remains within the law" she is doomed.

 

[Jarnhamar]

It seems Israel will have to content with endless war while Palestinians are in Gaza and the WB.

 

[brihard]

Sadly yes. The Palestinians show no signs of wanting to have any sort of economic or otherwise relation with Israel. They have had a chance to build something in Gaza, except they choose to throw away their future for 1 day of glory. How do you have peace with that mentality and that mentality would immediately take hold in the WB if given anymore anatomy. Also if Israel waits till the palestinian population grows further, the problem becomes much more dire, and you be looking at a Gaza response 2.0, but on a much wider scale. If Israel "remains within the law" she is doomed.

You keep acting as if Gaza and the West Bank are the same. They’re not. You even said yourself, “The Gazan Palestinians are mostly ethnically a different population than the WB Palestinians”.

The situation on the West Bank, bordering Jordan, and the situation in Gaza, wedged between Israel, the Med, and a sliver of Egypt, are markedly different. The overwhelming majority of the problems and attacks forcing Israel into serious military action are coming from Gaza. They’ve kept a lid on the West Bank generally quite handily, with the biggest problems only arising when illegal Israeli settlers try to force Palestinians out to occupy their homes. If Israel would stop condoning that, and get a grip on the settlers while maintaining an appropriate and balanced security buffer in the West Bank, Israel would have relatively minimal issues there. They’ve shown us this with exactly that as a generally successful approach in the past.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I do see them as completely different beasts. The problem is that if the Palestinians get full autonomy over the WB, or a good chunk of it, then Hamas is likley to take over and securing the longer border will be much, much harder. The Palestinian are pushing two pronged approach, demographical and via international support. At the same time the PA is mostly a corpse kept on life support by the Israelis. Bubbling below the surface is the intent to take back the land and kill Jews. WB types are more careful about what they say, but its there and it will come out given half the chance.
I don't see any other options and I think people that push peace currently are being used. Oct 7th was just a practice day for the Palestinians.

Gaza may end up like it did prior to 2005 with tight IDF control or the IDF will keep FOB's in the area to monitor and strike from

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Ask yourself this, over the last 40+ years, what haven't the Israeli's tried to ensure peace with the Palestinians?

 

[lenaitch]

The only thing really tying them to the area is the fact they chose to move there for religious reasons.

Equating a cultural, ethnic and historic homeland to being a mere matter of religion is a significant over simplification.

 

[Cloud Cover]

It definitely makes me wonder whether Spain has thought through their position, or are just reacting.

Legitimizing terrorism and violence to achieve "state" status is not something I'd be doing if I was running Spain. Then again, my understanding of Spanish politics is barely even surface level.

Never mind Spain, or the commies running Ireland- but Norway? They are in the process of running all the Islamic radicals out. I guess they want them to go home to Gaza or Brampton or some such other holding of Hamas.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Yep. Time to disperse the non-violent populace to places where they can start over and hopefully thrive.

No, because they just come here and cause problems. Time to settle the matter in country like men.

 

[abduly85]

Ask yourself this, over the last 40+ years, what haven't the Israeli's tried to ensure peace with the Palestinians?

Around when the Oslo accords were signed in 1993, the PLO under Yasser Arafat pretty much renounced armed resistance, recognized Israel and its right to exist, and recognized Security Council Resolutions 242 (withdrawal of Israel from the occupied territories) and 338 (ceasefire following the 1973 war).

But in return, Israel did not recognize the Palestinian people’s right to a state or their right to self-determination and pretty much gave Yasser Arafat a bantustan in the West Bank (image below).

And since then, construction of illegal Jewish settlements in the West Bank accelerated (against the Oslo Accords) with around 750,000 settlers now and counting!

So yes, Israel could've tried to follow the Oslo accords!

The West Bank Bantustan:

 

[Good2Golf]

But in return, Israel and all the key Arab power nations in the region did not materially recognize and support the Palestinian people’s right to a state or their right to self-determination and pretty much gave Yasser Arafat a bantustan in the West Bank (image below).

…again, helping you with some factual accuracy there, Habibi.

 

[KevinB]

Let’s jump back and remember why the West Bank was occupied again…

 

[Quirky]

World Court orders Israel to halt assault on Gaza's Rafah

Judges at the top United Nations court ordered Israel on Friday to halt its military assault on the southern Gaza city of Rafah, in a landmark emergency ruling on South Africa's case accusing Israel of genocide.

www.ctvnews.ca

Meanwhile in Israel:

 

[abduly85]

Let’s jump back and remember why the West Bank was occupied again…

Thank you for calling it what it is ... an "Occupation", not Disputed Territories as Israel calls it.

And you're right, Israel's occupation of the West Bank in 1967 wasn't accidental. It was the Israeli solution to the incompletion of the 1948 ethnic cleansing (in 1948, they managed to expel “only” half of the Palestinians and took over “only” 78% of the land. That inability to get rid of all the Palestinians explains Israel's policies till this day).

The plans were drawn long before the 1967 war. In 1963 a group of senior officers and officials drew the "Schaham Plan" which would be implemented in 1967, to impose military rule on the West Bank (and Gaza) after their planned occupation.

World Court orders Israel to halt assault on Gaza's Rafah

Judges at the top United Nations court ordered Israel on Friday to halt its military assault on the southern Gaza city of Rafah, in a landmark emergency ruling on South Africa's case accusing Israel of genocide.

www.ctvnews.ca

Now cue the "ICJ is antisemitic / Pro-Hamas" charges

 

[Rudburg]

Thank you for calling it what it is ... an "Occupation", not Disputed Territories as Israel calls it.

And you're right, Israel's occupation of the West Bank in 1967 wasn't accidental. It was the Israeli solution to the incompletion of the 1948 ethnic cleansing (in 1948, they managed to expel “only” half of the Palestinians and took over “only” 78% of the land. That inability to get rid of all the Palestinians explains Israel's policies till this day).

The plans were drawn long before the 1967 war. In 1963 a group of senior officers and officials drew the "Schaham Plan" which would be implemented in 1967, to impose military rule on the West Bank (and Gaza) after their planned occupation.


Now cue the "ICJ is antisemitic / Pro-Hamas" charges

Except that in 1967, the Israelis had no intention of fighting the Jordanians. They even sent a message through the UN that they would take no action towards Jordan if they stayed out of the fighting.

The Jordanians had other ideas and chose to fight, opening hostilities by shelling west Jerusalem.

The Jordanians made a huge mistake, and they were quickly defeated by the Israelis who drove them out of the West Bank and Jerusalem.

 

[Quirky]

You're delusional to think Israel would give up complete control of the West Bank to a future Palestine. Their fate lies in Gaza, or what's left of it.

 

[KevinB]

Thank you for calling it what it is ... an "Occupation", not Disputed Territories as Israel calls it.

And you're right, Israel's occupation of the West Bank in 1967 wasn't accidental. It was the Israeli solution to the incompletion of the 1948 ethnic cleansing (in 1948, they managed to expel “only” half of the Palestinians and took over “only” 78% of the land. That inability to get rid of all the Palestinians explains Israel's policies till this day).

The plans were drawn long before the 1967 war. In 1963 a group of senior officers and officials drew the "Schaham Plan" which would be implemented in 1967, to impose military rule on the West Bank (and Gaza) after their planned occupation.


Now cue the "ICJ is antisemitic / Pro-Hamas" charges

What planet are you on? Jordan lost that territory AFTER STARTING A WAR.

In hindsight the Israelis should have evicted every single Palestinian/Jordanian out of that territory.

You’re just exemplifying the sob story of an oppressed people that did it to themselves.

 

[Good2Golf]

Pretty much what one could expect from a terrorist organization’s apologist.

If only someone’s well-exercise gymnastics brain could do their FORCE test for them…

 

[Brad Sallows]

Countries aren't supposed to gain territory by war, even by taking it away from an attacker. That's the well-intentioned ideal, anyways. Perceived exigencies of survival will always override ideals.

Those who wish to pound the drums about occupation and colonization may continue doing so. Of course the establishment of a new state (Israel) with migrants was a colonizing project; of course territories that Israel has taken over in excess of the original partition agreement are occupied. Big deal.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Countries aren't supposed to gain territory by war, even by taking it away from an attacker. That's the well-intentioned ideal, anyways. Perceived exigencies of survival will always override ideals.

Those who wish to pound the drums about occupation and colonization may continue doing so. Of course the establishment of a new state (Israel) with migrants was a colonizing project; of course territories that Israel has taken over in excess of the original partition agreement are occupied. Big deal.

History of the world. Doesn’t make it right, doesn’t make it wrong. Colonizing occupations don’t just occur through military force. Just look at Conestoga College for an example of that.