Hamas invaded Israel 2023

[jackamela]

I

Alright gents, while we all abhor Hamas, let's not go advocating genocide while speaking out against genocide.

I think Egypt could easily open its border and accept all the people from Gaza as refugees.

No need for any of them to be killed. But Israel cannot really expect to tolerate Gaza as is, not least because the elected government of Gaza openly celebrated October 7th and promised to repeat it.

 

[GR66]

I

I think Egypt could easily open its border and accept all the people from Gaza as refugees.

No need for any of them to be killed. But Israel cannot really expect to tolerate Gaza as is, not least because the elected government of Gaza openly celebrated October 7th and promised to repeat it.

What on God's green earth makes you think Egypt would want to accept 2 million angry and radicalized Palestinians into their country?

 

[brihard]

My analysis is that this is just going to be a one night thing. Iran just wanted to save face and "retaliate" after getting its Damascus embassy bombed by Israel last week.
I doubt that Iran/Biden want an expanded war in the region... But genocidal Netanyahu seems to want to expand it and drag the US into it to extend his own political survival.

Here, a well known Israeli journalist just confirmed that Biden told Netanyahu the U.S. won't support an Israeli counterattack on Iran.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1779353729495413060

That’s not analysis; that’s just opinion and wishful thinking, likely based off a very limited set of inputs. If you want to call it ‘analysis’, show your work.

My opinion: Israel only cares what Iran wants to the extend that it shapes Israeli choices and what objectives of Iran’s they can deny.

What the U.S. wants matters somewhat, but only to the extent that satiating same satisfies Israeli long term national interest.

Iran launched an unprecedented and large direct attack on Israel. They broke the existing paradigm. While Iran’s attack was a failure if their intent was to actually land any blows, nonetheless Israel will need to forcibly correct Iran’s behaviour and push them back across the prior line. Israel will need and be motivated to show that no direct attack on Israel can achieve anything worth the cost.

What that looks like? I don’t know. It will not look like Israel just sitting back, high-fiving their ABM battery commanders, and thumbing their noses at the Iranian dictatorship.

 

[jackamela]

What on God's green earth makes you think Egypt would want to accept 2 million angry and radicalized Palestinians into their country?

I don't think Egypt would want to - but Europe is certainly told that it must accept millions of refugees. Canada is told that it must accept ultimately maybe hundreds of thousands of refugees.

So by that logic, why would Egypt be exempt?

Furthermore, I'm also slightly baffled by an international community that says Gazans are suffering famine & genocide - but which puts no pressure at all on Egypt to allow refugees in. The UN is very clear that, say, Germany and France must accept millions of refugees - but the UN does not feel Egypt should accept Palestinian refugees.

I don't have a dog in the hunt - but there are some jarring logical gaps there.

 

[Jarnhamar]

So by that logic, why would Egypt be exempt?

Europe ordered Poland to accept asylum seekers. They said no.

 

[jackamela]

Europe ordered Poland to accept asylum seekers. They said no.

Ok - so Poland was right to say no to refugees?

Other Europeans countries should also say no?

 

[Good2Golf]

Furthermore, I'm also slightly baffled by an international community that says Gazans are suffering famine & genocide - but which puts no pressure at all on Egypt to allow refugees in.

I don't have a dog in the hunt - but there are some jarring logical gaps there.

You needn’t be baffled. The ‘only’ international community not pressuring surrounding Arab countries to absorb Palestinian refugees are those who have well understood the concerned Arab countries’ very firm positions on why they won’t accept them - and it’s not just Egypt, it’s Jordan, KSA, UAE, Bahrain... The pressure goes to the wheels that put grease on the squeaks, and that’s primarily the West that heavily placates a loud diaspora in countries that didn’t experience (yet) the reality of a significantly ungrateful violent few ruining things for a peaceful, hopeful majority.

 

[Remius]

I don't think Egypt would want to - but Europe is certainly told that it must accept millions of refugees. Canada is told that it must accept ultimately maybe hundreds of thousands of refugees.

So by that logic, why would Egypt be exempt?

Furthermore, I'm also slightly baffled by an international community that says Gazans are suffering famine & genocide - but which puts no pressure at all on Egypt to allow refugees in. The UN is very clear that, say, Germany and France must accept millions of refugees - but the UN does not feel Egypt should accept Palestinian refugees.

I don't have a dog in the hunt - but there are some jarring logical gaps there.

You are working in the assumption that nations have to accept what the UN says.

 

[jackamela]

You are working in the assumption that nations have to accept what the UN says.

I am not - but I think some governments are.

 

[Remius]

Ok - so Poland was right to say no to refugees?

Other Europeans countries should also say no?

If it’s a problem for them then yes.

Generally with refugees you expect that they will at some point return to where they came. That outcome is normally more successful when refugees are kept as close to their home as possible.

But some countries don’t have to accept them. I suggest that Egypt et al have had their hands bitten once before when they accepted them previously. They aren’t keen on repeating that again.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Ok - so Poland was right to say no to refugees?

Other Europeans countries should also say no?

Your Cathy Newman mind tricks won't work on me fella.

You asked how could Egypt possibly be exempt from being ordered to take on people. I gave you an example.


You seem to want this discussion to go in a certain direction, so yes they were. If other Europeans don't want to import criminals rapists and murderers from other countries (among their behaved counterparts) then they should say no, too.

 

[Remius]

I am not - but I think some governments are.

You said that some countries are ordered and forced. They aren’t. They may be called on but orders and forcing isn’t a thing.

 

[abduly85]

I

I think Egypt could easily open its border and accept all the people from Gaza as refugees.

No need for any of them to be killed. But Israel cannot really expect to tolerate Gaza as is, not least because the elected government of Gaza openly celebrated October 7th and promised to repeat it.

I agree that someone needs to address this recent refugee and ethnic cleansing crisis in Gaza... And last time I checked, it wasn't Egypt that ordered millions of Gazans to leave the north of Gaza and head south... And then bombed schools, hospitals, mosques, churches, homes... Etc (which is now creating a logistical problem for Israel as it tries to evacuate people in Rafah but the North and middle of Gaza is now uninhabitable!), it was Israel who did all that.

So, Israel (not Egypt) is responsible for creating this crisis and should take in the refugees it created (it could build temporary towns for them.. Etc until it fulfills its military objectives). In fact, it would be partially fulfilling the UN's resolution (# 194) of the Palestinians' Right of Rrturn since 70% of Gazans are not really from Gaza but are Palestinians (and their descendants) who were ethnically cleansed from towns and villages inside the current state of Israel (my family included).

 

[Remius]

I agree that someone needs to address this recent refugee and ethnic cleansing crisis in Gaza... And last time I checked, it wasn't Egypt that ordered millions of Gazans to leave the north of Gaza and head south... And then bombed schools, hospitals, mosques, churches, homes... Etc (which is now creating a logistical problem for Israel as it tries to evacuate people in Rafah but the North and middle of Gaza is now uninhabitable!), it was Israel who did all that.

Maybe Hamas shouldn’t have embedded themselves in schools hospitals and mosques making them legitimate targets .

So, Israel (not Egypt) is responsible for creating this crisis and should take in the refugees it created (it could build temporary towns for them.. Etc until it fulfills its military objectives). In fact, it would be partially fulfilling the UN's resolution (# 194) of the Palestinians' Right of Rrturn since 70% of Gazans are not really from Gaza but are Palestinians (and their descendants) who were ethnically cleansed from towns and villages inside the current state of Israel (my family included).

Oct 7th and Hamas created this crisis.

Strange how the Muslim countries in the area won’t help fellow Muslims. Actually it isn’t that strange when you look into why they won’t.

 

[abduly85]

Also, here's an update on Israel's murder of the WCK employees, including a Canadian veteran.
Apparently countries that lost citizens in the attack reject the IDF "independent" report.
Australia, Poland, the U.K. and U.S. all indicate they aren't satisfied — while Canada remains mute

https://twitter.com/x/status/1779490995643523522

 

[brihard]

Also, here's an update on Israel's murder of the WCK employees, including a Canadian veteran.
Apparently countries that lost citizens in the attack reject the IDF "independent" report.
Australia, Poland, the U.K. and U.S. all indicate they aren't satisfied — while Canada remains mute

https://twitter.com/x/status/1779490995643523522

If you care to note, the original topic on this thread is Hamas’ attack into Israel on October 7th. I mention that only because several times you’ve attempted to admonish others to ‘stay on topic’.

You haven’t expressed your opinion of same, so I’ll take this opportunity to ask. Given the pst several months’ evidence of widespread murder, kidnapping, and sexual assault in the course of that attack, what is your personal opinion of the lawfulness of the attack on Israel that Hamas specifically conducted in October, how they went about actually carrying it out, and how their fighters conducted themselves with respect to the laws of armed conflict?

 

[abduly85]

Maybe Hamas shouldn’t have embedded themselves in schools hospitals and mosques making them legitimate targets .

Once again, you're just falling for the IDF lying propaganda (finding a couple of AK-47 behind an MRI machine )

Joking aside, and staying on topic, can you please provide non-IDF sources to support your claim that Hamas uses civilians as human shields. Pick any reputable human rights organization.

Here's Israel's own Human Rights group (B'Tselem) detailing the IDF's long history of using Palestinians as human shields:

https://www.btselem.org/topic/human_shields

 

[brihard]

Once again, you're just falling for the IDF lying propaganda (finding a couple of AK-47 behind an MRI machine )

Joking aside, and staying on topic, can you please provide non-IDF sources to support your claim that Hamas uses civilians as human shields. Pick any reputable human rights organization.

Here's Israel's own Human Rights group (B'Tselem) detailing the IDF's long history of using Palestinians as human shields:

https://www.btselem.org/topic/human_shields

You didn’t answer the question asked. Try again.

 

[dimsum]

Once again, you're just falling for the IDF lying propaganda (finding a couple of AK-47 behind an MRI machine )

Joking aside, and staying on topic, can you please provide non-IDF sources to support your claim that Hamas uses civilians as human shields. Pick any reputable human rights organization.

Here's Israel's own Human Rights group (B'Tselem) detailing the IDF's long history of using Palestinians as human shields:

https://www.btselem.org/topic/human_shields

NATO?

https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf

 

[RangerRay]

Strange how the Muslim countries in the area won’t help fellow Muslims. Actually it isn’t that strange when you look into why they won’t.

Also strange how silent they were when Beijing committed genocide on their Muslim brothers, the Uyghurs.