I'll believe it when I see it.
Government hints at boosting Canada’s military spending
- Thread starter Maxman1
- Start date
Hell, at least offer to pay up.
Young people in this country have faced:
Governments at all levels refusing to build enough housing, forcing substantial inflation in shelter costs.
Successive cuts and freezes in education funding, resulting in rising tuition, sending student debt through the roof. And of course, employers won't even hire baristas without postsecondary these days. So this is just the price of entry.
Successive cuts in healthcare services both from government and their employers. Resulting in this cohort having the least access to healthcare.
More recently the federal government surged immigration to keep a lid on wage inflation, while actually driving up all kinds of other inflation, most notably on shelter. Asset holder benefited. Those who own the least assets (young people) lost.
And now the idea is that we should conscript them, make them do something that is unproductive for their own advancement, to fulfill dreams of a cheap army. This talk reminds me of Putin's Babushka brigade ever ready to send their grandsons to their deaths as long as those pension cheques keep coming.
When seniors of today (not a decade from now as Harper tried) agree to give up their OAS cheques, we can start having the conversation of how young people should serve.
Czech_pivo
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 3,048
- Points
- 1,260
I see those stats - but I disagree with them. I have a 19yr son in his 2nd yr of Uni. He lives at home when he's not at university. He and the vast vast vast majority of his co-students are not minors and fall under their parents family income but they enjoy ALL the benefits of their parents income and should not be considered 'poor' - a place to live rent free the 6 months of the year when they are not in school, free food during that entire time period, no heating/electricity costs, a substantial number get their car insurance paid for by their parents, a substantial number get their clothing needs, personal hygiene needs, vacations, etc, etc, etc paid for by their parents. If ALL of those things were counted as 'income' those numbers would be completely different. I can't believe the amount of 'free money' my son has received from Jan 1 onto today from the Federal and Provincial governments since he's over the age of 18yr - its quite ridiculous.Every proposal I've seen this, usually from those who are ignorant on these matters, always see this as a cheap way to boost numbers. But if this has to actually be sold to young people, it can't be done cheaply. What you propose probably wouldn't be enough. There has to be a fundamental change in this:
What you're proposing is for the poorest cohort in the country to give up a crucial year. Compensation for that better be a lot more than a year's worth of education. Especially if they then face tax increases to fund this. My personal proposal would start at $100k in carry forward tax credits. And it would go a lot higher if there's any consideration to deploy these folks. And that's on top of conscript pay, 0% student loans, etc.
Keep in mind, you're not just selling this idea to this board. You need to sell this to the very young people who have to do this and all their parents. And I haven't seen an idea here what I would vote for, as a parent, and CAF member. I can only imagine how the muggles will take these fever dreams of compelled service.
The average wage of someone starting out in Canada from university with FT employment is around 60k/yr - and that would vary vastly across the country. Here in the GTA it would be more around 70k/yr, in a place like Thunder Bay its more likely around 50k/yr.
You pay these individuals what a new fresh recruit gets paid and then give them 2yrs worth of credit for tuition/fees (that's about 17k) and throw in room/board and that's another 17-18K. Combined, call it 35k. From what I can see online, the monthly salary for a Class 1 is 3,616 which is around 43k/yr - that's a combined value of 78k/yr. Factor in the fact that these individuals will now have the ability to directly put into savings all income earned during the 4.5months in the spring/summer after their first year of completing university because their tuition and their first year room and board is completely covered (roughly 21-22k of the 25k annual cost for a student going away to attend university in Ontario) and they are even further ahead.
For those students that choose to live at home during their 4yr degree (which I did for my undergraduate), the 17-18k for room and board would translate into 4yrs of their tuition costs completely covered. In essence a 4yr degree could be completely free (unless they chose a Coop programme where the costs are much higher). Those individuals would then be able to save the vast majority of the income that they earn during the 4.5 month of spring/summer earnings season.
Now stop and look at the reduced burden this places on the parents in terms of putting money into their kids RESP's. This will place less burden on them and allow the parents to either use this 'new found money' to fund their own RSP's, paid down their mortgages quicker or car payments or have a family vacation or renovate their house, enroll their kids in more sport activities, etc, etc, etc. This will also reduce the amount of RESP 20% matching grants that the Federal government will have to outlay. The knock on effect is potentially quite large.
Under my proposal, coupled with the existing RESP system, the vast majority of kids would graduate debt free, the prudent ones who don't blow all their earning from the summer months would have substantial savings.
You can disagree all you want. But you'll have to convince others. Take that proposal to a neighbour who isn't very political. See if they think it's enough to let their kid get drafted.
Like I said, for me personally? I value that year for my kid at $100k. And that's just if they are planting trees in Northern Ontario. You tell me they are going to get shot at in Europe involuntarily and the price goes way up.
Is he serving? If not, ask him what it would take to get him to serve. And ask what fair compensation would be, if he were to be conscripted.
Czech_pivo
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 3,048
- Points
- 1,260
He's not serving. He's got a life threatening allergy to peanuts and nuts that requires him to carry an epi-pen with him at all times. Do you think the CAF would be able to ensure that all its prepared food, whether prepared inhouse or by 3rd party companies is 100% nut/peanut free on a daily basis?
In some countries this doesn't exempt you from national service. Just from military service. I know countries where those who can't/won't do military service will end up doing other kinds of service. So the question is what would that time be worth to him?
KevinB
Army.ca Relic
- Reaction score
- 24,591
- Points
- 1,260
Sorry for the delayed response. Cell service isn’t great where I’m at currently.
Even with Canada and the UK adopting the C3 it would still be a relative orphan. You’d have what 400 tanks in the combined fleet at max?
You’re looking at 5k plus versions of Abrams, and 3,600+ Leopard 2 variants, K-2 Black Panther over 1,200 (and climbing), heck even the rather (comparatively) fledgling KF-51 Panther has orders over the top of what have ever been built for Challengers 420-450 depending on sources, and Ukraine is going to be be building at least 400 KF-51 in the Rheinmetall factory there.
I just don’t see the viability of a Challenger III for anyone (including the Brits) and the C3 for them are just rebuilds of the older C2.
Realistically I see the KF-51 being the next logical tank for Canada given RM’s footprint in Canada, the second would be a domestically produced K-2.
The M1A2 Abrams would have been the easiest option, but my current President has made that option less of a palatable choice.
daftandbarmy
Army.ca Fossil
- Reaction score
- 36,450
- Points
- 1,160
So you're saying the Chally 3 is the tank version of the SA-80 and the LSW?
Now I get it
KevinB
Army.ca Relic
- Reaction score
- 24,591
- Points
- 1,260
God no, but it simply doesn’t have the same level of support due to fleet size that other Western MBT’s have, but unlike the Brit bullpups it’s not a lemon….So you're saying the Chally 3 is the tank version of the SA-80 and the LSW?
Now I get it
daftandbarmy
Army.ca Fossil
- Reaction score
- 36,450
- Points
- 1,160
Agreed
UK armed forces dropping the SLR and adopting the SA-80 is like dating a 10 and settling for a 3
— your ex-friend Vince (@TheVinceGerard) May 23, 2020
I’ve said numerous times in the past year that the Trudeau government needs to drastically reduce the number of people coming into this country, whether legal immigrants, students or refugees. I’ve seen all the unemployed people living in the streets and going to the Food Bank for something to eat. The infrastructure of our cities are being strained to the limit. I’ve also been one of those who were shouting for Trudeau to step down.
The problems today cannot be remedied simply by replacing an existing party leader with a new one or, for that matter, replacing one political party with another one. We’ve gone from the Harper years to the Trudeau years and, while things have definitely been getting worse, the Harper years were not exactly halcyon days. I could go on and on about how things are made worse by various provincial and municipal governments. Are the Feds deserving of all our animosity towards government? In my opinion, no. For that matter, big business shouldn’t be getting away without accepting a lot of the blame either. CEOs are earning salaries and perqs at obscene levels never seen before. In short, the rich are getting richer. The poor are getting poorer.
Remember when the I.T. revolution first started about 35-40 years ago? Many technology gurus predicted that it would be greater and have more impact than the Industrial Revolution. Seeing how the I.T. revolution has still only just begun, I suspect those gurus were probably right. Nevertheless. countless people who went to college or technical school and trained for a job in the I.T. sector and constantly upgraded their certification levels still found themselves out of work. To many it’s as if every new day is more demanding than the previous one. Although I’m no longer in the work force, most of us older folks are not deaf or blind to what is going on. I wish I had the solutions that some may claim to have but I feel that young people are getting screwed royally by just about everyone and everything. And that’s not an easy thing to remedy, especially when China, India, Brazil and other developing countries are snapping at our backsides for jobs.
In my previous post(s) I remarked on the desirabilty for some kind of national service. If it’s not military service then I feel there are countless other jobs that would go far beyond merely digging ditches like workers used to do in the Depression years. Would they be great jobs? Possibly, but probably not. They could involve working with existing organizations in various capacities.
Basically, government should not be doing what the private sector can do. But, hey, sometimes the private sector is the one that fucks people over. So the way I see it, government isn’t always the bad guy, whether it’s federal, provincial or municipal…or whether it’s LPC or CPC.
KevinB
Army.ca Relic
- Reaction score
- 24,591
- Points
- 1,260
European countries managed it for years.
Or course the Russian Bear being next door was more motivational I suppose…
RangerRay
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 4,837
- Points
- 1,260
I just never liked the idea of depending on someone to have my back who had no motivation at all to serve. Forcing someone to serve who doesn’t want to never sat well with me, unless things were especially dire.
For instance, conscription in Israel and Ukraine makes sense. In Canada and the US, not so much. I could see a case in pre-1990’s and post-2014 Europe.
daftandbarmy
Army.ca Fossil
- Reaction score
- 36,450
- Points
- 1,160
The closest thing I've seen to an army of slaves is a conscript army.
If you hate your kids, make sure you draft them
Czech_pivo
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 3,048
- Points
- 1,260
I’m putting this here because it’s related to this thread I believe.
It’s a sad story that is told.
It very well can be the reason why we should not be expecting the UK to come to our aid, literally and figuratively, because what is told in this video.
It’s a sad story that is told.
It very well can be the reason why we should not be expecting the UK to come to our aid, literally and figuratively, because what is told in this video.
Maxman1
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 1,853
- Points
- 1,160
Which is still more than the original Challenger 2.
- Reaction score
- 9,732
- Points
- 1,160
The closest thing I've seen to an army of slaves is a conscript army.
If you hate your kids, make sure you draft them
Apparently armies of slaves win.
Paras got double pay, their standard 2 shillings a day plus another 2 shillings a day parachute pay.
Danish conscripts get a stipend.
Danish homeguards are volunteers and don't get paid unless they are called out in which case they get expenses and lost wages.
Swedish conscripts get $450 per month.
Finnish conscripts
daftandbarmy
Army.ca Fossil
- Reaction score
- 36,450
- Points
- 1,160
- Reaction score
- 9,732
- Points
- 1,160
Sounds like a dream job
Doin' their bit, innit?
Similar threads
