Government hints at boosting Canada’s military spending

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[Remius]

I've worked with EITs at ADM(MAT) too. They are not, however, the majority of ENG recruits.

They were for the ODP. My point is to counter that we don’t have a development training program. We do.

For example, go look at jobs in the EW, Ammunition and Explosives, etc. You'll find few to none civvies without military experience.

Not arguing that.

Moreover the jobs you're looking at civilianizing do need some military experience and/or specific fleet/system knowledge.

No, the jobs I would look to civilianize are not those jobs.

These are not jobs occupied by civilians today. So today's civilian employment is not what we're taking about. Also, there are some perspectives that only come from wearing the cloth of the country. As my ex-mil boss at ADM(MAT) used to say to some civvies getting stressed over signing a flight permit with substantially higher risk than they were used to in the civilian world, "We're not f***ing Air Canada."

Like I said, there are plenty of jobs that could be civilianized. Lots of clerical positions, administrative, PM, eng, PG etc etc. I’m not saying all. But a lot.

 

[ytz]

Look at the geoloc distribution of the MARE, RCEME, AERE and SIGS communities (talking officers here).

It's not a plurality in th NCR, it's a majority.

That's not a "occasional LCMM posting".

And Log, INT, Cyber, etc

And not just trades there's functional specialties like SOF, Space and EW are substantially concentrated in Ottawa too now. AETE moved from Cold Lake to Ottawa partly because they had issues recruiting test pilots and flight test engineers. I don't think people are actually aware of how many operational units are now in Ottawa.

Also, good luck with advancement though if you only stay in the NCR. So those folks are still putting up all the challenges of military life and doing it for a negligible "military factor".

Nice distraction I guess from talking about compensation. Convert a few thousand Ottawa REMARs to civilian and surely all of the CAF's recruiting and retention problems will be solved.

 

[FJAG]

An understandable perspective for somebody who isn't in and is part of one of the wealthiest cohorts in the country. But when we're recruiting and trying to retain from the other side of the spectrum this doesn't work.

Yeah. With full disclosure of the onion on my belt and 44 years of RegF and ResF service and having started my married life as a young lieutenant on $600 a month and taking my wife 1,200 kilometres away from her family on our first posting a week after our wedding, I wouldn't understand. Just sayin'.

@dapaterson sums it up nicely above. There are many things that need to be done to make life better and more attractive for service personnel. The point that I particulalry agree with is posting stability.

Most of the financial related problems that you refer to are not unique to service members but to families as a whole in our current society. The problem is that the military model still revolves around one that was in vogue back in the fifties and sixties when men were the bread winners and the "little woman" stayed at home raising the family. Society has changed. Spouses want careers and can have them. Financial - especially housing - pressures dictate that families now have to have two bread winners. The military model as interpreted in Canada does not, in general, cater to that.

You are 100% right when you say doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is insanity. The system needs a revolution and not mere fine tuning.

I'm 100% in favour of new military models that would change the existing one. A few ideas are: two classes of RegF service one of which allows a member to choose a path with geographic stability; shorter engagements of service with education benefits so that more young, unmarried personnel fill the lower ranks; moving units to urban areas where the main recruiting base lives and people can stay closer to family and their spouse's career; a larger pipeline for recruiting and training so that turnover is not a major problem - turnover should not be a problem, it should be a feature in a system that requires fit and able people capable of going into combat; and yes, in certain circumstances where there is a pay parity discrepancy - a system of higher "trades pay."

As an outsider looking in at this point I don't want to sound crass - but - one has to accept that the purpose of a military is first and foremost to defend its country and not to be a guaranteed lifetime career with ever increasing remuneration for its members. If pay, like it does now, consumes so much of the budget that equipment and training go to hell in a handbasket and the force becomes less effective as a whole, then one needs to seriously look at the model from top to bottom. Cost of living increases make sense and are essential. Massive pay infusions to cure systemic problems do not.

Unfortunately, too many people in the civil service - and their political leaders - see the tax base as a cash cow that one can continuously go to as a solution to what they see as wrong with their little corner of society.

 

[Brad Sallows]

And do you understand that the power structures have changed there and nobody really has influence on Trump? Even Congress rolls over for him now.

If you believe no-one can influence Trump, why should anyone try anything? Might as well just go on as usual, with no counter-protectionism, and seek improvements where we can to mitigate damage until "something" convinces Trump he's in bad odour with many Americans.

But the supposition is ridiculous. Trump is already influenced by particular people, and changes his mind (and the status of his advisors) almost on a whim. For now he is enamoured of Navarro. That won't last four years.

This administration will be much like his past one. The useful work will be done by people with ideas who convince him to put his name to them.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Government isn't going to win a bidding war on compensation against private enterprises.

Pretty much everyone working is asking for more money and less work right now. Where is that capacity to come from? Productivity improvements - which includes removing things which militate against productivity - is an obvious answer.

Military jobs aren't easily amenable to productivity improvements, so military compensation (like many publicly-funded occupations) is mainly going to be towed along by Baumol effect and by the tendency of public bargaining to ratchet things up in the absence of competitive pressures.

Nevertheless, there are things that can be automated and upsized. More capable equipment, fewer crew. More fires delivered by adding observer/director capabilities where they don't currently exist and backing them up with systems capable of delivering more weight with fewer people.

Equipment and munitions don't complain about where they are warehoused or deployed.

 

[Kirkhill]

They were for the ODP. My point is to counter that we don’t have a development training program. We do.

Not arguing that.

No, the jobs I would look to civilianize are not those jobs.

Like I said, there are plenty of jobs that could be civilianized. Lots of clerical positions, administrative, PM, eng, PG etc etc. I’m not saying all. But a lot.

I have a pet theory that a lot of the tech trades in the military resulted from WW1 when people that had been raised tacking up horses with leather harnesses suddenly had to be trained how to start and maintain internal combustion engines and set up wireless radios.

REME positions had to be trained from scratch. There was no civilian infrastructure. It also had to be created. By WW2 there were a lot of civilians doing jobs they originally learnt in WW1.

 

[Remius]

I have a pet theory that a lot of the tech trades in the military resulted from WW1 when people that had been raised tacking up horses with leather harnesses suddenly had to be trained how to start and maintain internal combustion engines and set up wireless radios.

REME positions had to be trained from scratch. There was no civilian infrastructure. It also had to be created. By WW2 there were a lot of civilians doing jobs they originally learnt in WW1.

I would also argue that plenty of people brought their skills to the military. Carpenters, clerks, blacksmiths etc

 

[Kirkhill]

I would also argue that plenty of people brought their skills to the military. Carpenters, clerks, blacksmiths etc

Navigators (navvies), claykickers, miners and railway engineers. All recruited from their civilian jobs and stuck into uniform.

Tunnelling companies of the Royal Engineers - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Canadian Railway Troops - A Brief History | Canadian Military Engineers

cmea-agmc.ca

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/295462-public-works-pioneer-battalions/

Navvies: workers who built the railways | National Railway Museum

At the dawn of the industrial age, brilliant engineers were designing the first railways. But who took on the hard graft of building them?

www.railwaymuseum.org.uk

 

[MilEME09]

The issue with pay is that if we do not fix the fundamental issues effecting cost of living for members. Increasing pay will only ever be a band aid solution. Money talks, but even if you paid a member $500+ a day, if quality of life isn't good and with inflation that 500 does not go far after 5 years we are back at Square 1. We need to address the deep issues in the CAF like housing, if we are going to keep people

 

[Remius]

The issue with pay is that if we do not fix the fundamental issues effecting cost of living for members. Increasing pay will only ever be a band aid solution. Money talks, but even if you paid a member $500+ a day, if quality of life isn't good and with inflation that 500 does not go far after 5 years we are back at Square 1. We need to address the deep issues in the CAF like housing, if we are going to keep people

Benefits though generally come with pay offsets.

 

[ytz]

I'm 100% in favour of new military models that would change the existing one. A few ideas are: two classes of RegF service one of which allows a member to choose a path with geographic stability; shorter engagements of service with education benefits so that more young, unmarried personnel fill the lower ranks; moving units to urban areas where the main recruiting base lives and people can stay closer to family and their spouse's career; a larger pipeline for recruiting and training so that turnover is not a major problem - turnover should not be a problem, it should be a feature in a system that requires fit and able people capable of going into combat; and yes, in certain circumstances where there is a pay parity discrepancy - a system of higher "trades pay."

As an outsider looking in at this point I don't want to sound crass - but - one has to accept that the purpose of a military is first and foremost to defend its country and not to be a guaranteed lifetime career with ever increasing remuneration for its members. If pay, like it does now, consumes so much of the budget that equipment and training go to hell in a handbasket and the force becomes less effective as a whole, then one needs to seriously look at the model from top to bottom. Cost of living increases make sense and are essential. Massive pay infusions to cure systemic problems do not.

There's no cheap way out here. That's what I'm getting at. I posted a page back about American benefits. And they basically sign up a ton of people for 5 years. But they give them healthcare for life, a cheap mortgage for life and 4 years of post-secondary (sans financial limit). For 5 years of service. That's what it costs them. And that's generic benefits. When I was down there, navy nukes were getting six figure re-sign bonuses for 5 years on top of US$150k pay packets. The idea that short contracts can be done cheaply is nonsensical. Especially for in-demand skill sets.

 

[ytz]

Government isn't going to win a bidding war on compensation against private enterprises.

You don't have to win a bidding war against the private sector. You just have to ensure that your compensation and benefits structure doesn't mean staying in the CAF will see substantial loss of quality of life relative to peers.

In the first 5 years, not a big deal. Most people see this as part of the training/intern experience. What they lack in pay, they are gaining in skill.

Next 5 years, bit more concern. But they can see that they are still learning more and building that resume.

Beyond this, is where the real problems start. That person now has a valuable resume and probably a lot more obligations (dependents).

And this is retention. Recruiting is a whole other problem.

 

[Remius]

There's no cheap way out here. That's what I'm getting at. I posted a page back about American benefits. And they basically sign up a ton of people for 5 years. But they give them healthcare for life, a cheap mortgage for life and 4 years of post-secondary (sans financial limit). For 5 years of service. That's what it costs them. And that's generic benefits. When I was down there, navy nukes were getting six figure re-sign bonuses for 5 years on top of US$150k pay packets. The idea that short contracts can be done cheaply is nonsensical. Especially for in-demand skill sets.

You see, I’d be willing to see things like 0% mortgages for CAF members and mid career retention bonuses.

 

[Kirkhill]

The issue with pay is that if we do not fix the fundamental issues effecting cost of living for members. Increasing pay will only ever be a band aid solution. Money talks, but even if you paid a member $500+ a day, if quality of life isn't good and with inflation that 500 does not go far after 5 years we are back at Square 1. We need to address the deep issues in the CAF like housing, if we are going to keep people

Serious questions: Which people do you want to keep? And how many of them?

Some folks are apparently run off their feet while others are pushing brooms to fill time.

 

[childs56]

Private 1 $3614- $5304 $21.34- $33.15hr

Cpl $6069- $6493 $37.93- $40.58hr

Cpl Spec $6731- $7142 $42.06- $44.63hr

Mcpl $6299- $6939 $39.36- $43.36 hr

Mcpl Spec $6929- $7404 $43.30- $46.27hr

Sgt $7043- $7380 $44.01-$46.12

Looking at this pay I based the calculations on a 40-hr work week (average work week in Canada is 37.5hrs, average wage is $31.5hr) focused on the Entry level to Supervisor Pte- Sgt. These are not bad wages overall; these wages should not be deterring a person from joining the Military. Where I feel they fall short is in the Sgt role but that would depend on your part of the country and actual job descriptions of comparison.

If I look across the country and see the labor shortages it makes one scratch their heads, where are all those people who use to work gone? They blame the covid pandemic but is that really where we are at. Have people found other streams of business to make a living. (the Military can not compete with only fans workers) Then what about all the Immigrants that have come to Canada where are they at? Begs the question what is wrong with the labor market as opposed to the shortage of workers for the CF.

I think the first part is Recruiting, it is lacking in being visible in the communities. The process takes to long, then there is the training process. I don’t know how things are now, members should not be sitting for more then a month or two before being shipped off to Trades School. If that means you send a Mechanic off to Civi Heavy Duty School, then so be it. Have them sign a contract for X amount of time after the training.

The Military hiring and retaining should not be a problem on the money side. I do understand the other sides such as family and such. Most Military Bases are not isolated like they use to be. The Towns and Cities have grown up around them providing jobs and services.
Healthcare/ dental is a issue across the country, there is no easy fix for that. Especially if you need a specialist.

I guess the Military could get into paying overtime wages or evening weekend incentives for working past normal working hours.
Overall the Military appears to be decently compensated at the Bluecollar level.

 

[ytz]

The issue with pay is that if we do not fix the fundamental issues effecting cost of living for members. Increasing pay will only ever be a band aid solution. Money talks, but even if you paid a member $500+ a day, if quality of life isn't good and with inflation that 500 does not go far after 5 years we are back at Square 1. We need to address the deep issues in the CAF like housing, if we are going to keep people

There's an old joke that goes, "Money can't buy me happiness. But money can buy me a Ferrari. And a Ferrari makes me happy."

When I was in the US, I had a navy nuke friend. Navy LT. Got paid close to US$130k. This was in 2015. And he was resigning for a generous bonus. He was quite happy to do it, because he made enough that his wife didn't have to work. She took care of the home. And he got to focus on work. Housing and healthcare was taken care of by the military. Everybody forgets how much housing allowance the Americans pay too. He routinely flew his wife and kids to anywhere in the world to meet his sub. Would a person like that do it for half the pay, no housing allowance and no healthcare benefits (the CAF offer)? Doubtful.

Money won't solve all the CAF's problems. But I do think, it could solve two of the largest irritants almost immediately: housing and childcare.

 

[Kirkhill]

Private 1 $3614- $5304 $21.34- $33.15hr

Cpl $6069- $6493 $37.93- $40.58hr

Cpl Spec $6731- $7142 $42.06- $44.63hr

Mcpl $6299- $6939 $39.36- $43.36 hr

Mcpl Spec $6929- $7404 $43.30- $46.27hr

Sgt $7043- $7380 $44.01-$46.12

Looking at this pay I based the calculations on a 40-hr work week (average work week in Canada is 37.5hrs, average wage is $31.5hr) focused on the Entry level to Supervisor Pte- Sgt. These are not bad wages overall; these wages should not be deterring a person from joining the Military. Where I feel they fall short is in the Sgt role but that would depend on your part of the country and actual job descriptions of comparison.

If I look across the country and see the labor shortages it makes one scratch their heads, where are all those people who use to work gone? They blame the covid pandemic but is that really where we are at. Have people found other streams of business to make a living. (the Military can not compete with only fans workers) Then what about all the Immigrants that have come to Canada where are they at? Begs the question what is wrong with the labor market as opposed to the shortage of workers for the CF.

I think the first part is Recruiting, it is lacking in being visible in the communities. The process takes to long, then there is the training process. I don’t know how things are now, members should not be sitting for more then a month or two before being shipped off to Trades School. If that means you send a Mechanic off to Civi Heavy Duty School, then so be it. Have them sign a contract for X amount of time after the training.

The Military hiring and retaining should not be a problem on the money side. I do understand the other sides such as family and such. Most Military Bases are not isolated like they use to be. The Towns and Cities have grown up around them providing jobs and services.
Healthcare/ dental is a issue across the country, there is no easy fix for that. Especially if you need a specialist.

I guess the Military could get into paying overtime wages or evening weekend incentives for working past normal working hours.
Overall the Military appears to be decently compensated at the Bluecollar level.

You are forgetting the pension plan that is not to be found in the civilian world.

Lots of youngsters out there hustling to get by on 36 hours 15-20 per hour, no benefits and no pension.

 

[ytz]

You see, I’d be willing to see things like 0% mortgages for CAF members and mid career retention bonuses.

Cool. But we don't even do that now, except for a few select occupations (pilots, doctors, etc). For most occupations, the CAF basically accepts going red and just says it's a problem.

And people forget all the little benefits the Americans get. The Commissary stabilizing grocery prices regardless of where members serve. The Exchange having cheap gas and auto servicing and tax free booze. Family Centres that gear daycare fees to income. You can use all of that as a veteran down there. On top of that VA Loan, GI Bill and VA healthcare. 5 years of service in the US is absolutely life-changing for a young person from a socio-disadvantaged community. But aside from that, these are kinds of subsidies that basically make actually military pay down there substantially disposable income (compared to here). And then maintain a lot of those advantages for life.

 

[ytz]

You are forgetting the pension plan that is not to be found in the civilian world.

Lots of youngsters out there hustling to get by on 36 hours 15-20 per hour, no benefits and no pension.

I didn't think about the pension plan when I signed up. And I'm pretty sure you didn't either. Most people don't think about this until they are 10 years in, and deciding on whether to stay or go. And a lot of that decision is basically, whether they need the money and stability now vs being able to hold off. Incidentally, it's around that 10 yr mark where you have people you want to retain. They are trained and experienced. And the best group to train the next generation.

 

[Kirkhill]

I didn't think about the pension plan when I signed up. And I'm pretty sure you didn't either. Most people don't think about this until they are 10 years in, and deciding on whether to stay or go. And a lot of that decision is basically, whether they need the money and stability now vs being able to hold off. Incidentally, it's around that 10 yr mark where you have people you want to retain. They are trained and experienced. And the best group to train the next generation.

Which sort leads to the point that @FJAG, @KevinB
and I have been alluding to: there is a difference between youngsters joining for excitement and careerists.

We want to exploit that difference. There should be a lot, and I mean a lot, more short term enlistments, followed by reserve service OR the option to sign on for a career.

The Naval Experience Program is as good a model as any and should be replicated.

The Naval Experience Program (NEP) will provide you with exposure to life in the Royal Canadian Navy and help you decide if life in the Navy is the right fit for you.

Following a streamlined enrollment, eight-week basic military training and four-week naval training, you will join the Naval fleet on either the East or West coast. Over the course of several months, you will learn the ropes of being a sailor by shadowing a variety of jobs and gaining exposure to several skills and opportunities. The program will include time at sea, giving you a sense of the adventures to be found in a naval career.

Pay, compensation and benefits​

When participating in the Naval Experience Program, you will receive the same pay, compensation and benefits entitled to all members of the Canadian Armed Forces.

What you will experience​

Over the course of a year, participants will get training and be exposed to life as a member of the Royal Canadian Navy. As a recruit, you will be introduced to military life by completing the Basic Military Qualification Course, and then learn the skills required to work as a sailor during the Naval Environmental Training Program on either coast. After completing these courses, as a trained sailor, you will have the ability to complete common tasks on a ship such as seamanship and damage control and will shadow different jobs at sea and ashore. You will have the opportunity to experience:

• The camaraderie to be found in the Navy
• A variety of naval jobs
• Life at sea aboard a Royal Canadian Navy Ship
• Different shore-based units and the work they do

If this is not the right fit for you, an option to release from the Canadian Armed Forces before the end of the contract will be available.

Upon Completion​

Once participants complete the program, they will be offered a selection of trades and may continue to serve with the Royal Canadian Navy. All training completed during the program will be credited for further service.

How to Apply​

Successful applications must meet the following criteria:

• Be a Canadian citizen or Permanent Resident;
• Be at least 17 years old*;
• Have completed Grade 10** or 24 credits of Québec Secondaire IV;
• Meet the Canadian Armed Forces common enrolment medical standard.

To apply to the NEP, you must fill out the application online. When filling out the “Program Choices” field, choose “Sailor”.

*Applicants under the age of 18 must obtain consent from a parent or legal guardian to participate.
**If you’re in Grade 10, you can send us a letter from your high school outlining the courses you’re taking and your potential to complete them successfully. Make sure to send your proof of completion as early as possible.

The maximum age is based on the age of 60 less the minimum years of service required for the career chosen. Ask a recruiter for the minimum number of years.

An army year of that and then 2 to 10 years in the Reserves would solve a lot of Combat Arms problems.