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Global Warming/Climate Change Super Thread

Kirkhill said:
The Ontario Energy Gap is variously given as something between 10,000 and 24,000 MW.  That means that Ontario would have to erect, and service, something between 20,000 and 48,000 wind turbines.  Or we can do as GAP suggests and build dams.  Or we can get back into the uranium business.  A nice little nuclear powered steam plant with cogen capacity would go along way in the Tar Sands. Particularly if supplied by Saskatchewan uranium. 

Yeah, Ontario has an energy gap, but Dalton McGuinty just shut down all of their coal power plants.  Apparently no one told him about electrostatic precipitators (which remove dust) and, catalysts (which remove sulphur dioxide).
I'll go for the nuclear power-plant option as soon as the technology is invented to get the steam from the plant to the point of extraction.  Don't quote me on these numbers, but last I heard the distance required is 800m while the steam condenses in the pipes after 250m.
That, and highway 63 is crowded enough without trying to truck nuclear waste down it.

Or, we could ignore politicians who present bad ideas and use energy sources that have been proven to work.
 
Various forms of alternative energy have been proposed before, especially during the first energy shock in 1973 and thereafter. Dr Jerry Pournell put the hard numbers together for the various proposals in a series of articles and columns, eventually published together in a book called "A Step Farther Out", sadly long out of print.

Unfortunately, wind, waves, garbage and so on collectively could produce about 5-10% of the energy required to run the United States in the late 1970's when this was published. Many of the schemes tended to use more energy to prepare the system (for example sorting and drying garbage for energy conversion) than was possible to gain from extraction. The same sort of logic applies to things like ethanol "energy".

While there have been significant advances since then, the growth of energy consumption has probably consumed any net gains from better garbage conversion, wind turbines etc. Unless the laws of physics have changed since the 1970's, Dr Pournell's conclusions are probably valid today. (BTW, Dr Pournell wasn't against doing any of this, in fact he felt this was worthwhile for reasons besides "Energy Independence"). One energy source which could change the balance of power in the 21rst century is called OTEC (Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion). Google it and see how Hawaii and French Polynesia could be the "OPEC" of the future.

As for suggesting human agency changes the global climate, there is a view of human power and technology steeped in Hubris. A single volcanic eruption can eject as much carbon dioxide, sulphur and particulate matter as the entire global output of human industry in a year. Looking at so called plans like "Kyoto", they are simply means of transferring wealth from rich industrial nations like the United States to collapsed economies like Russia (via "Carbon Credits"), which don't affect emissions, and of course exempt the greatest emitters of all, China and India, who have no incentive to EVER sign up. Give your head a shake and do something useful like turn down the air conditioner and convert to LED and compact fluorescent light bulbs.
 
I can't believe anyone is still taking this thread in any way seriously. For crying out loud it has "Al Gore" in the title! It's obviously meant to be a gag thread. And then we get "The Apocalypse is Nigh!".

Sheesh! Would you be debating as hard if it said "Kermit the Frog"? Same relevence! In fact, considering the years of childhood indoctrination, and that ol' Kermie lives in a swamp, I'd probably be far more inclined to listen to the muppet. ::)
 
GAP said:
You are forgetting Hydro Power. It's huge, getting larger, environmentally friendly, renewable, etc. etc.

James Bay ... Three Gorges ... there is no such thing as environmentally "friendly" sources of energy: it's more about people pretending to themselves that they are saving the world.


a_majoor said:
As for suggesting human agency changes the global climate, there is a view of human power and technology steeped in Hubris. A single volcanic eruption can eject as much carbon dioxide, sulphur and particulate matter as the entire global output of human industry in a year.

Volcanoes have (and do) cause many multiples of the amount of damage to the ozone layer than humans do ... IIRC Kīlauea is still the largest polluter in the United States ... Laki produced 10 times as much CO2 as Europe does in a year (now) ... not to mention Pinatubo ... climate change models have yet to prove abnormal climate change, let alone causation!
 
Sorry Para, I believe that a good dose of sunshine (in the form of coherent, logically rigorous and factually correct arguments) is the best way of dealing with this sort of thing. Perhaps it doesn't change people's minds, but the screams of "The light! It burns!" is fairly satisfying as well.

More of the same:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/04/AR2006070400789.html

Global Warming's Real Inconvenient Truth

By Robert J. Samuelson
Wednesday, July 5, 2006; A13

"Global warming may or may not be the great environmental crisis of the next century, but -- regardless of whether it is or isn't -- we won't do much about it. We will (I am sure) argue ferociously over it and may even, as a nation, make some fairly solemn-sounding commitments to avoid it. But the more dramatic and meaningful these commitments seem, the less likely they are to be observed. Little will be done. . . . Global warming promises to become a gushing source of national hypocrisy.''

-- This column, July 1997

Well, so it has. In three decades of columns, I've never quoted myself at length, but here it's necessary. Al Gore calls global warming an "inconvenient truth," as if merely recognizing it could put us on a path to a solution. That's an illusion. The real truth is that we don't know enough to relieve global warming, and -- barring major technological breakthroughs -- we can't do much about it. This was obvious nine years ago; it's still obvious. Let me explain.

From 2003 to 2050, the world's population is projected to grow from 6.4 billion people to 9.1 billion, a 42 percent increase. If energy use per person and technology remain the same, total energy use and greenhouse gas emissions (mainly, carbon dioxide) will be 42 percent higher in 2050. But that's too low, because societies that grow richer use more energy. Unless we condemn the world's poor to their present poverty -- and freeze everyone else's living standards -- we need economic growth. With modest growth, energy use and greenhouse emissions more than double by 2050.

Just keeping annual greenhouse gas emissions constant means that the world must somehow offset these huge increases. There are two ways: Improve energy efficiency, or shift to energy sources with lower (or no) greenhouse emissions. Intuitively, you sense this is tough. China, for example, builds about one coal-fired power plant a week. Now a new report from the International Energy Agency in Paris shows all the difficulties (the population, economic growth and energy projections cited above come from the report).

The IEA report assumes that existing technologies are rapidly improved and deployed. Vehicle fuel efficiency increases by 40 percent. In electricity generation, the share for coal (the fuel with the most greenhouse gases) shrinks from about 40 percent to about 25 percent -- and much carbon dioxide is captured before going into the atmosphere. Little is captured today. Nuclear energy increases. So do "renewables" (wind, solar, biomass, geothermal); their share of global electricity output rises from 2 percent now to about 15 percent.

Some of these changes seem heroic. They would require tough government regulation, continued technological gains and public acceptance of higher fuel prices. Never mind. Having postulated a crash energy diet, the IEA simulates five scenarios with differing rates of technological change. In each, greenhouse emissions in 2050 are higher than today. The increases vary from 6 percent to 27 percent.

Since 1800 there's been modest global warming. I'm unqualified to judge between those scientists (the majority) who blame man-made greenhouse gases and those (a small minority) who finger natural variations in the global weather system. But if the majority are correct, the IEA report indicates we're now powerless. We can't end annual greenhouse emissions, and once in the atmosphere, the gases seem to linger for decades. So concentration levels rise. They're the villains; they presumably trap the world's heat. They're already about 36 percent higher than in 1800. Even with its program, the IEA says another 45 percent rise may be unavoidable. How much warming this might create is uncertain; so are the consequences.

I draw two conclusions -- one political, one practical.

No government will adopt the draconian restrictions on economic growth and personal freedom (limits on electricity usage, driving and travel) that might curb global warming. Still, politicians want to show they're "doing something." The result is grandstanding. Consider the Kyoto Protocol. It allowed countries that joined to castigate those that didn't. But it hasn't reduced carbon dioxide emissions (up about 25 percent since 1990), and many signatories didn't adopt tough enough policies to hit their 2008-2012 targets. By some estimates, Europe may overshoot by 15 percent and Japan by 25 percent.

Ambitious U.S. politicians also practice this self-serving hypocrisy. Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has a global warming program. Gore counts 221 cities that have "ratified" Kyoto. Some pledge to curb their greenhouse emissions. None of these programs will reduce global warming. They're public relations exercises and -- if they impose costs -- are undesirable. (Note: on national security grounds, I favor taxing oil, but the global warming effect would be trivial.) The practical conclusion is that if global warming is a potential calamity, the only salvation is new technology. I once received an e-mail from an engineer. Thorium, he said. I had never heard of thorium. It is, he argued, a nuclear fuel that is more plentiful and safer than uranium without waste disposal problems. It's an exit from the global warming trap. After reading many articles, I gave up trying to decide whether he is correct. But his larger point is correct: Only an aggressive research and development program might find ways of breaking our dependence on fossil fuels or dealing with it. Perhaps some system could purge the atmosphere of surplus greenhouse gases?

The trouble with the global warming debate is that it has become a moral crusade when it's really an engineering problem. The inconvenient truth is that if we don't solve the engineering problem, we're helpless.

© 2006 The Washington Post Company
 
paracowboy said:
I can't believe anyone is still taking this thread in any way seriously. For crying out loud it has "Al Gore" in the title! It's obviously meant to be a gag thread. And then we get "The Apocalypse is Nigh!".

Sheesh! Would you be debating as hard if it said "Kermit the Frog"? Same relevance! In fact, considering the years of childhood indoctrination, and that ol' Kermie lives in a swamp, I'd probably be far more inclined to listen to the muppet. ::)

Sorry, that's what he actually said.  It would be very funny indeed, if the less-informed among us didn't stand to be swayed by his obviously flawed arguments.
Al Gore's argument sound plausible until one actually thinks about it, and many people will not.
He has become a full time lobbyist, and his arguments are based on half-truths.  If I were an environmentalist, I would not want this kind of nonsense lumped together with my message.  As a Canadian, I find his attack on our industry somewhat asinine.  The Oil Sands are a viable resource, and their utilization helps make both Alberta and Canada wealthy.

Here it is from the Globe and Mail (www.theglobeandmail.com).  I am sure even Paracowboy will like this one:
Canada in Brief
Klein is said to tar Gore over oil sands view
Ottawa -- Ralph Klein has reportedly scorned former U.S. presidential candidate Al Gore over his scathing sketch of Alberta's massive oil sands industry as wasteful and a blight on Canada.
Mr. Gore says in the current issue of Rolling Stone magazine that processing Alberta's bitumen into crude oil requires almost as much energy as is produced and causes huge environmental damage.
Mr. Klein, who was in Washington last week to promote the oil sands as a secure and reliable source of energy, rejected the criticisms.
"I don't know what he proposes the world run on, maybe hot air," he is quoted as saying. "The simple fact is America needs oil." AFP

I refuted Gore's reasoning directly.  The Globe and Mail did not even report his reasoning!  They instead took the subtext of what he was trying to get across (which contradicts what Gore actually said), and then buried it in interpretation.  Where are the numbers?  I ran them for all to see, and they did not match.  No bias, no political sympathies, only truth.
My original post put something out there that was missing in the media. 

 
a_majoor said:
As for suggesting human agency changes the global climate, there is a view of human power and technology steeped in Hubris. A single volcanic eruption can eject as much carbon dioxide, sulphur and particulate matter as the entire global output of human industry in a year.

since we are on the topic of "math illiteracy", could someone please explain to me how:
22 BILLION tonnes (yearly average manmade co2 emissions) 
is a smaller number than
200 MILLION tonnes (yearly average co2 emitted by volcanoes)?
(figures courtesy of the u.s. govt: http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/Hazards/What/VolGas/volgas.html)

i just don't get it. no matter how many times this and all the other specious objections to global warming are duly exposed as a complete crock, some people can just keep on clinging to them as if they're still real arguments. just like paul hellyer and his ufos.

granted there's plenty room to disagree about how to deal with global warming (and the security implications), but the problem itself and its cause are pretty firmly established by now.

or are some of you guys just students at one of those postmodern humanities faculties, where everybody gets to have his own facts if the standard issue ones are too "offensive"?
 
A lot of you make some excellent points. I no longer worry about global warming. Just think of all the money we can save on airfare, travelling to tropical destinations. Instead, just stay home in Nunavut with the palm trees. I can't wait.
 
Another long post well worth reading, since it gives the hard numbers of the problem, plus references and links to Steven Den Beste's site, which has (or had, I understand he no longer posts due to health issues). This information may be troubling for the innumerate and arithmetically challenged, but the rest of us can consider this as a sort of planning guide. What works, what doesn't, where to go, what to invest in, what to avoid (and knowing that, which people to listen to and who to ignore).

http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/008761.php

This thread also has some useful information:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/37017.0.html
 
a_majoor said:
Another long post well worth reading, since it gives the hard numbers of the problem, plus references and links to Steven Den Beste's site, which has (or had, I understand he no longer posts due to health issues). This information may be troubling for the innumerate and arithmetically challenged, but the rest of us can consider this as a sort of planning guide. What works, what doesn't, where to go, what to invest in, what to avoid (and knowing that, which people to listen to and who to ignore).

http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/008761.php

This thread also has some useful information:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/37017.0.html

Well, taking a brief look at the link, I see this:

2. Why electric cars are not the answer:
But if the goal is to reduce emission of CO2 overall, they are actually worse than using gasoline. That's because electricity isn't an energy source.

Electricity is the most versatile form of energy we have, but all the electricity we use is created from other things. The majority of the electricity used in the United States is generated by burning coal. ...

If the original electricity was created by burning coal, then what this means is that a lot more CO2 is released per passenger mile by the battery-based electric car than by a gasoline car.

So ok, it says most electricity is generated by burning coal.  Is there some reason to believe that will always be the case? Is coal not as non-renewable as petroleum? What I mean to say is - eventually, coal and petroleum are both going to be gone. I have no idea when, no one does, but if we are going to run out of it anyway, doesn't it behoove us to think seriously about replacing it sooner rather than later?

Wikipedia says "In the United States, for example, the coal power plants generate 50% of the electricity produced" which is half, not the majority, though 50%+1 would technically be a majority, if wikipedia is to be believed, and hell, they even thought James Doohan was in the RCAF...

Anyway, point being that just because coal is used for 50%, or even the majority of electricity production, what reason is there to believe it has to be that way, and is it not true there is no reason to believe it will always be that way, given that coal resources are finite?

Why all the argument about whether fossil fuels and non-renewable resources are good or bad for the ozone, global temperatures, etc. - basically, who cares? We need to replace them anyway, or restructure our society so we don't need them anymore - that alone should be incentive to scale back their use and find alternatives.  Even if global warming is a "crock" (and it seems to me those of us engaged in the debate here are doing so by selecting one group of sources they've read over other sources) aren't the imperative for reversing it the same imperatives for the simple fact we're using up our other resources? 

Given the reliance of leading economies on oil, I understand the economic imperative not to do anything - which would explain the vigorous attacks on global warming Chicken Littles - seems a lot to me like the cigarette industry and the defence of their own bread and butter for nefarious purposes.
 
The only true renewable electric generating processes are
    hydro electric
    geothermal
    tidal action
    wind power

There is a capital outlay for each of these, but they are all truly renewable, and will outlast any other form.

  added one...sorry...magnetic forces
 
You will have to follow the links or Google Steven Den Beste, but the point isn't so much that we may eventually extract energy from space/time wormholes; the problem is the sheer magnitude of the installed base and the capital outlay to change it. If every single new vehicle sold starting today was a hybrid, there would still be SUV's and other fuel hogs on the road for more than a decade, just based on the normal life cycle of the rolling stock.

The process of changing from coal fired thermal energy plants will be a vast undertaking, 50% of the US electrical base is measured in Gigawatts (or maybe even a Terrawatt by now), so whatever is being proposed had either be equally big (i.e. Megawatt generating stations), or really cheap and quickly available (Mr Fusion's in aisle 35 of Canadian Tire), and preferably both.

Even counting on improvements in efficiency is really running up against the laws of diminishing returns, there are very few dramatic breakthroughs like LED lights, most process take place at pretty much the maximum practical levels of efficiency possible now. To suggest that somehow we can stop using coal fired thermal energy plants without causing major disruptions in people's lives (hey Dalton, remember that?), or convert from oil to some other non hydrocarbon fuel, or go solar, is arithmetically challenged. Even really practical alternatives like OTEC only help in specific situations, like being anchored off the coast of Hawaii, unless you use the energy from the process to make synthetic oil and ship it to wherever there is a market for energy (and of course you loose a lot of the energy value in each step of the conversion process). Smart people in the right part of the world will eventually build strings of OTEC plants in the ocean and churn out synthetic oil for the rest of us.

My summary: Yes we are living in interesting times (in the Chinese sense), and human ingenuity will pull us through yet again. There will not be "one" solution to the global energy problem, but a large cascade of solutions of various scales. Global warming or cooling will finally be demonstrated to be some sort of natural cycle, and unless Al Gore is capable of changing the energy output of the Sun, we will have to adapt like our ancestors did during the previous warming and cooling cycles.

 
a_majoor said:
My summary: Yes we are living in interesting times (in the Chinese sense), and human ingenuity will pull us through yet again. There will not be "one" solution to the global energy problem, but a large cascade of solutions of various scales. Global warming or cooling will finally be demonstrated to be some sort of natural cycle, and unless Al Gore is capable of changing the energy output of the Sun, we will have to adapt like our ancestors did during the previous warming and cooling cycles.

In other words, you agree completely with Gore's conclusion (not really his, rather, the only sensible conclusion) that we need to find alternatives to fossil fuels.

I guess I am saying that no matter what the arguments, and who is making them, everyone in the end has no possible alternative to agreeing with the bald fact that we need to "get off of" oil, gas, and coal.

The rest is simply quibbling over how badly it is going to hurt to do it.  Is this not so?  If Gore et al are playing loose with the facts in Chicken Little style, it doesn't invalidate that conclusion that everyone else necessarily has to reach.
 
a_majoor said:
My summary: Yes we are living in interesting times (in the Chinese sense), and human ingenuity will pull us through yet again. There will not be "one" solution to the global energy problem, but a large cascade of solutions of various scales
no argument there. although i think that nuclear power will probably have to play a key role in any sensible approach (to both problems).

a_majoor said:
Global warming or cooling will finally be demonstrated to be some sort of natural cycle,
how could you possibly know this? and despite the mountain of evidence and a clear theoretical mechanism already pointing pretty conclusively to manmade global warming.

and before you post yet another objection that you think hadn't occurred to the scientists actually studying the phenomenom, do make sure to check first that it hasn't been utterly debunked already by those working in the field
(handlily categorised at http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/category/climate-science/ or http://illconsidered.blogspot.com/2006/02/how-to-talk-to-global-warming-sceptic.html. and if you think these guys may be "ideologically suspect", then you can just follow their links for yourself.)
 
a_majoor

    Well said!  I'm really not clear what Gore is actually contributing to finding a workable solution to what he's claiming as a crisis.  Global warming is widely recognized as an issue in need of being dealt with; the problem is that there's no "magic bullet" to  resolve the issue of a massive dependence on current sources of energy.  I'd be far more impressed if Al Gore had been sounding the call a couple of decades ago, like some people were.
 
squeeliox said:
how could you possibly know this? and despite the mountain of evidence and a clear theoretical mechanism already pointing pretty conclusively to manmade global warming.

A bit of research on my own (did you know that according to the London weather office and cross checked against Erie Penn, the average temperature in this region of the world seems to have decreased by 10 since the 1950's?), and cross checking various global warming "assertions" against other data sets, like historical records and archeology.

and before you post yet another objection that you think hadn't occurred to the scientists actually studying the phenomenom, do make sure to check first that it hasn't been utterly debunked already by those working in the field
(handlily categorised at http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/category/climate-science/ or http://illconsidered.blogspot.com/2006/02/how-to-talk-to-global-warming-sceptic.html. and if you think these guys may be "ideologically suspect", then you can just follow their links for yourself.)

Or you can follow this one link, which pretty handily summarizes the flaws in the Mann "Hockey Stick" graph (the gold standard for Global Warming alarmism): http://www.john-daly.com/hockey/hockey.htm (beware, it has numbers 'n stuff), or perhaps this one, which demolishes the methodology as mathematically flawed: http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?id=13830&ch=biztech, or this one, which demonstrates the "Hockey Stick" shape can be generated from random numbers: http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~lambert/parody/tcs/. If this is the sort of stuff "scientists studying the field" are using to demonstrate man made global warming, then they are trying to defraud the taxpayers who fund the research, and should be stripped of their tenure and jailed.

And how about a link that shows Global Warming is happening in other parts of the Solar System (that Karl Rove gets around, doesn't he?): http://www.mos.org/cst-archive/article/80/9.html

The only debunking that needs to be done is the idea that changes in the Earth's climate are caused by human activity.

 
a_majoor said:
A bit of research on my own (did you know that according to the London weather office and cross checked against Erie Penn, the average temperature in this region of the world seems to have decreased by 10 since the 1950's?), and cross checking various global warming "assertions" against other data sets, like historical records and archeology.

Or you can follow this one link, which pretty handily summarizes the flaws in the Mann "Hockey Stick" graph (the gold standard for Global Warming alarmism): http://www.john-daly.com/hockey/hockey.htm (beware, it has numbers 'n stuff), or perhaps this one, which demolishes the methodology as mathematically flawed: http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?id=13830&ch=biztech,
like i said already, every single point made on those (rather old) links you provide has been demolished long ago. the "hockey stick" graph has long since been superseded by numerous other (and far more important) models, studies and datasets that show the same results anyway. solar radiation has NOT been increasing, regional temperature trends are NOT global temperature trends (what percentage of the earth's surface does lake erie cover, anyway?), etc etc etc...
i could play whackamole with the whole litany of discredited objections till the cows come home, but i know that each one quietly discarded along the way would magically keep reappearing anyway. but why take my word for it? you can examine the links i've provided. they don't bite.

a_majoor said:
or this one, which demonstrates the "Hockey Stick" shape can be generated from random numbers: http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~lambert/parody/tcs/.
incidentally, if this guy, tim lambert, was sceptical about global warming, rather than just the hockey stick, he has since changed his mind: http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/global_warming/. there seems to have been quite a bit of that in the last couple of years, btw.

a_majoor said:
If this is the sort of stuff "scientists studying the field" are using to demonstrate man made global warming, then they are trying to defraud the taxpayers who fund the research, and should be stripped of their tenure and jailed.
if all those scientists are conspiring to "defraud the taxpayers", they sure aren't going about it very smart, are they? otherwise, they would be saying they still have no conclusive data either way and that the question "needs more study", just to string us along for more funding. but hey, a good old-fashioned purge and show trial of the intellegentsia would teach them to think correctly now, wouldn't it?
 
GAP - perhaps there is one more

It's based on something called the Carbon cycle - Sunlight + CO2 creates plants via something called photosynthesis  - it works well in forests, fields, oceans and greenhouses (some greenhouses have even been known to create/buy CO2 in order to improve their crop yields)  At night plants excrete a deadly toxin - a metabolic by-product of building all that green carbon based material - the toxin is oxygen.  Animals breathe the oxygen which along with the carbon they ingest from the plants allows them to extract energy and release CO2 back into the atmosphere feeding more plants which feed more animals.  The solution to excess quantities of CO2 is excess quantities of plants.  Building green houses in association with power plants is already a strategy being employed on small scales.

Another option is to bubble CO2 into a tank full of algae and watch it grow - more food, more fuel, no free CO2. 

If you don't want to go to the capital expense just wait a bit - warmer temperatures and more CO2 will result in algal blooms at sea volunteering to absorb all that spare CO2.  In fact there is a colony off the West Coast of BC as we speak.  And more have been sighted elsewhere. 

Algae to or plankton, plankton to krill, krill to salmon, salmon to my table - pass me another Chinook and I will do my bit to decrease CO2.

Cheers.  ;)
 
Kirkhill, Nooooo! You will ruin my banana plantations and ability to corner the global banana market!  ;D
 
Most unfortunate Artorius - line forms to the right. 

PS don't tell anyone but I am working on moving "London Bridge" from Arizona to Great Slave Lake - I reckon there should be water up there long enough for me to make a killing on waterfront and hotels - I just need a feature and what good is a bridge without water?  Arizona want be needing it much longer.  ;D
 
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