• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Georgia and the Russian invasions/annexations/Lebensraum (2008 & 2015)

A new NATO, with lines drawn in Poland, and elsewhere.  Russia bantering.  The USA bantering.  I tell you all, like it or not, the Cold War is back :(

And remember this.  After the first world war, we thought that war couldn't get worse.  WW2 ended up being a nuclear war (even though only one side used nukes).  The future is so bleak, I gotta wear shades...
 
This was misinterpretted?

"Poland, by deploying (the system) is exposing itself to a strike — 100 percent,"
- Nogovitsyn, the deputy chief of staff

I can understand that, from that quote, the "nuclear"  part was speculation, but we are talking about Russia.  Mother Russia likes to puff herself up.

Oh, and lets not forget about the "Beyond diplomacy" line.
 
More on Information is power:
ITAR-TASS.  At first glance, seems fairly neutral, offering news without opinion.
Then, there is "truth".  The Russian Foxnews ;D
 
Flanker said:
This is why US and USSR signed agreements to eliminate these missiles in Europe.

If you honestly think that a few interceptors in Poland greatly upsets the power ballance then you are saddly mistaken and you take Russia for a near-powerless nation.

Simple fact is that, with ballistic missiles alone, Russia can pulverize the US and Europe several times over. Russia, like the US, has multiple systems to deliver nuclear weapons ensuring that complete and utter destruction occurs. Puttin knows this and is simply using the interceptors in Poland to score political points. This is not a significat threat to Russia.
 
Well, at least the Georgians are finally getting some aid; the USS McFaul has arrived!

http://www.military.com/news/article/us-navy-warship-arrives-at-georgia.html

US Navy Warship Arrives at Georgia
August 24, 2008
Associated Press

BATUMI, Georgia - A U.S. Navy warship carrying humanitarian aid anchored in the southern port of Batumi on Sunday, bringing much-needed humanitarian aid to Georgia and sending a strong signal of support to an embattled ally.

The guided missile destroyer USS McFaul, loaded with 72 pallets of humanitarian aid, is the first in a series of five American ships scheduled to arrive this week.

The shipment comes after a partial withdrawal of Russian military forces from Georgia following days of fighting earlier this month that damaged cities and towns and displaced tens of thousands of Georgians.

The conflict between Russia and Georgia, a small ex-Soviet republic whose pro-Westerns have tried to shed Moscow's influence and sought NATO membership, has brought Russian-U.S. relations to a post-Cold War low.

The McFaul, an Arleigh Burke-class destroyer, is also outfitted with an array of weaponry, including Tomahawk cruise missiles, which can carry either conventional or nuclear warheads, and a sophisticated radar system. For security reasons the Navy does not say if ships are carrying nuclear weapons, but they usually do not.

The deputy chef of Russia's general staff suggested Saturday that the arrival of the McFaul and other ships of NATO members ships would increase tension in the Black Sea. Russia shares the sea with NATO members Turkey, Romania and Bulgaria as well as Georgia and Ukraine, another ex-Soviet whose pro-Western president also is leading a drive for NATRO membership.

"I don't think such a buildup will foster the stabilization of the atmosphere in the region," Russia's ITAR-Tass news agency quoted Col. Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn as saying.

Batumi, Georgia's main oil port, is close to the southern end on Georgia's Black Sea coast, near the Turkish border.

A U.S. ship anchoring in Poti, a port further north that has been a target of the Russian military, would have created more tension because Russian troops still hold positions near Poti.

But an official from the U.S. Embassy in Georgia said the decision to anchor further south, in Batumi, was the result of concerns about damage inflicted to the Poti port during the conflict.

"Because there was damage to the port facility in Poti, we wanted to be sure the humanitarian aid got in," U.S. Embassy spokesman Stephen Guice said in Batumi.


© Copyright 2008 Associated Press. All rights reserved.
 
hi Rodahn! Sorry. I was away.. Polish feelings towards Russia... Have a look at Polish history - the occupation of Poland in the 18th century - then count the number of rebellions til 1918, then add the Polish-Russian wars (which Poland won - and officers of which were particularly rounded up by Red internal security troops), add in 1939.. then add in 1944, when the Home Army was willing to cooperate and was rounded up (the memorial stone in Lublin Castle here - used by the gestapo and then the Russian Internal Security chappies lists the last execution of Home Army personnel as 1963)...then there's the Warszawa Uprising, and post-war looting and repayments. Read about Kaliningrad and the cooperative spirit with Poland about access to Polish waters.. oh and add-in another wonderful Russian legacy: Chernobyl.. cancer rates are quite high here.... Then there's the Russian mafia... the non-return of Polish art treasures... Basically, the opinion is "Thank-you very much... please stay on your side of the border". I doubt anyone wants the return of the grey, dreary days of being allied to USSR/Russia - a good description of which, can be found in P.J. O'Rourke ''Holidays in Hell''
 
The USAF has been flying humanitarian aid into Tbilisi for over a week now. :)
 
The USS Mount Whitney (LCC 20) is due to transit to the Black Sea at the end of the month.There is speculation that a Polish frigate and a Canadian warship possibly Iroquois or Calgary will accompany the Whitney on its humanitarian mission to Georgia.
 
JackD said:
Polish feelings towards Russia... Have a look at Polish history - the occupation of Poland in the 18th century - then count the number of rebellions til 1918, then add the Polish-Russian wars (which Poland won - and officers of which were particularly rounded up by Red internal security troops), add in 1939.. then add in 1944, when the Home Army was willing to cooperate and was rounded up (the memorial stone in Lublin Castle here - used by the gestapo and then the Russian Internal Security chappies lists the last execution of Home Army personnel as 1963)...then there's the Warszawa Uprising, and post-war looting and repayments.

This is a typical Polish point of view.
Listening to you, one might think of an innocent sheep being constantly agressed by a rude bear.
But reality is not that black and white, so I dare to add some grey paint to this aquarel

18th century, Occupation of Poland - why do not you mention Poland occupation of Russia in 17th century
1918, Polish-Russian wars, which Poland won  - yeah, the first thing the independent Poland did was attacking Belorussia and Ukraine
1938, Munich agreement - Poland in collaboration with Hitler troops invades Czechoslovakia and occupies Teshin region
1939 - after Poland government fleed under German attack leaving country without control, the Soviet Union retakes the territory occupied by Poland in 1919-20
1944 - Home Army organizes the avanturist Warsaw uprising without negotiating any support from Red Army and fails

What is more surprising, is current Poland's position, which is constantly trying to hurt Russia for any economical or military reasons.
 
tomahawk6 said:
The USS Mount Whitney (LCC 20) is due to transit to the Black Sea at the end of the month.There is speculation that a Polish frigate and a Canadian warship possibly Iroquois or Calgary will accompany the Whitney on its humanitarian mission to Georgia.

Ehh .. just a question, why do not send a basic cargo ship for a "humanitarian mission"?
::)
 
AFAIK, this US ship is the last US ship that Turkey allowed entering the Black Sea this year
 
Mr. Flanker... Have you been here, do you have relatives that have endured the great and noble Russian way of rule? Everything Russia touches they destroy - look at the ecological disaster that is Russia today... One think you might think about, if Russia and the Russian way of life was so grand, why did so many nations choose to leave it when they could? I'll say no more.. you and your ilk are beneath contempt... and I say that as having been a soldier in the Canadian Armed Forces. May I ask why the f. are you in Canada if Russia is your version of the land of hope and glory?
 
Flanker... before you coment, note that JackD is currently a resident of Poland and would be on the receiving end of any largesse the Russians would care to deliver.
 
Geo.. it isn't really that, the irritant is that people like the gentleman concerned holds in contempt our generation - the Dr. Strangelove generation. I still remember the Cuban Missile Crisis  - though a wee lad at the time - I also remember Prague Spring. Poland has always been a target - much as Canada has always been a target  (in the first case due to transportation links, the second to blind and deafen the eyes and ears of NORAD). The history of post-Cold War politics has been the desire to establish engagement.. Why else all the economic assistance provided to Russia? But in any dance, the partner has to dance too. Putin and his boys first want to sulk in the corner, then to demand the tune changes, the band changes, the venue changes... A good geopolitical example is Poland-Ukraine - hundreds of years of hostility - but both sides are getting over that. Another, German-Poland... Why turn back the clock? But Putin and his ilk (seem to) want that.
 
By the way, thel atest comments: Russia sees Georgia outcome as proof of its dominance
The U.S. and other Western nations may not like what Russia is doing, but officials in Moscow believe those countries lack the leverage, strength or unity to intervene, analysts say.
By Megan K. Stack
Los Angeles Times Staff Writer

August 25, 2008

MOSCOW — In this historic hub of expansion and empire, Russia's military victory over U.S.-backed Georgia was cheered as evidence that Moscow has regained its global dominance -- and proof that the rest of the world can't risk standing in its way.

As Russian soldiers poured into neighboring Georgia this month and Russian warplanes bombed fleeing, ill-equipped Georgian troops, U.S. and European officials condemned Moscow. But the image of Russia that appeared over and over in media here was that of a country rising from its knees.

The United States and the nations of Europe may not like what Russia is doing, but officials in Moscow now believe those countries lack the leverage, strength or unity to intervene, analysts here say. Several of them repeated the same idea: that the West no longer exists as a unified force.

With the U.S. floundering economically and bogged down in two costly wars, Russian officials were confident that it could not and would not come rushing to Georgia's defense with a military intervention, analysts here say. Europe, meanwhile, depends upon Russian oil and gas exports, and was leery of a conflict with Moscow that could further raise fuel prices, they said.

"There is no West anymore. It's eroding and weakening," said Sergei Karaganov of the Council on Foreign and Defense Policy, a Moscow think tank. "We are feeling very strong, and we don't trust anybody. Especially the United States."

Three or four years ago, he said, Russia would have been nervous to hear threats of expulsion from the Group of 8 leading industrialized nations, as Republican presidential candidate John McCain suggested. Now, Karaganov said, many Russians laugh at the notion.

"I mean, who are these nations? Russia is probably stronger than any country in the G-8 except for the United States, and it has more credibility because it hasn't killed hundreds of thousands of people recently," he said. "It has won wars, and the other countries are losing them."

He paused. "There is arrogance in my statements," he said, "but that's the way people see things."

Many here read the current conflict not as the defeat of a smaller, poorer Georgian army but as a strike against the U.S., which has backed Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili and trained his troops. After years of fuming while the U.S. built up ties with former Soviet republics and Eastern European nations, many Russians view the Georgian conflict as an important turning of the tide.

"As far as the Russian elite is concerned, it's another very important step in Russia's restoration of its position in the world," Andrei Piontkovsky, a visiting fellow at Washington's Hudson Institute, said in a telephone interview. "The public and government is so proud not only because they defeated Georgia, but because they humiliated and defeated their great geopolitical rival, the United States of America."

With war raging between Russia and Georgia, which has hopes of someday joining NATO, the U.S. was limited to sending humanitarian aid and railing against Moscow. Badly needed aid is still pouring in: The U.S. Navy guided-missile destroyer McFaul arrived at the Georgian port of Batumi on Sunday with baby food, bottled water and other supplies.

Georgia now finds itself on the front line in a broader, deeper and slower ideological war. Since the Soviet collapse, the last vestiges of the Cold War have lingered in the form of a struggle between Washington and Moscow for influence in the former U.S.S.R.

"Moscow is very much concerned with the meddling of the United States in the post-Soviet space," said Sergei Markov, a Russian analyst close to the Kremlin. "We have been watching for a long time how the United States, under the guise of helping new democracies, has in fact been gaining managerial control over these countries."

Nations once firmly under Moscow's thumb, especially Ukraine, Georgia, Latvia and Estonia, have pulled away from Russia and worked to develop new alliances in the West.

With regional tensions inflamed over Georgia, other neo-Cold War fights are brewing. Many Russians are keeping a close eye on Ukraine, whose loss remains an existential challenge to a Russian culture that traces its empire to the banks of the Dnieper River. Moscow has long resisted the notion that Ukraine is an independent nation.

Some analysts believe that watching Georgia get pummeled by Russia may have given Ukrainians a more visceral sense of vulnerability. That could result in the opposite reaction sought by Moscow, helping to nudge reluctant citizens to support Ukraine's own bid for NATO membership.

At the same time, there is increasing tension over historical Russian claims to Ukraine's Crimea peninsula, home to many ethnic Russians as well as Russia's Black Sea fleet.

If Ukraine joins the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, Karaganov said, "it will be seen as an act of belligerence."

"Ukraine is the cradle of Russia," he said. "It's more Russian than Russia."

Meanwhile, Poland enraged Moscow last week by agreeing to host a U.S. missile defense base that the Bush administration insists is designed to bring down weapons launched from nations such as Iran. Russian officials, who regard the missile shield as deterrence meant to curb Moscow's military might, responded by saying that Russia would be "forced to react, and not through diplomatic channels."

But for now, the biggest fight remains in the Caucasus. Russian military officials this weekend vowed to beef up their forces in Georgia in direct proportion to American military spending to rebuild the Georgian army.

Russia accuses Georgia of starting the current conflict by launching a military operation meant to reassert control over the breakaway republic of South Ossetia.

"We just repelled a frenzied attack on Russia from the United States," Markov said. "Everybody knows that it was none other than Washington that gave Tbilisi [the Georgian capital] the green light to kill thousands of peaceful residents in South Ossetia."

In the popular Russian narrative, Moscow is the defender and peacemaker, not the aggressor and invader.

U.S. officials argue that Russia wedged itself between Georgia and its breakaway republics of South Ossetia and Abkhazia in a de facto annexation, then labored for months to provoke a conflict in order to formalize the arrangement. Russia then reacted far too forcefully to the Georgian operation in South Ossetia, they say, exaggerating the death toll while dropping cluster bombs on Georgian civilians and occupying swaths of Georgia proper that it has yet to relinquish.

American propaganda, Russians say. Alongside a newfound sense of might, Russians appear firm in their belief that they hold the moral high ground.

"This crazy, trigger-happy monster was killing civilians in South Ossetia," said Vyacheslav Nikonov, a political analyst and head of the Russian World foundation, which promotes Russia and its language. "What else could [Russian President Dmitry] Medvedev do?"

After watching the West's reaction to the conflict, Russia's elite is rethinking its strategic planning along military lines, Nikonov said.

"We took for granted that we had some working relationship with the West, and it looks like that's not the case," he said. "There will be a serious strategic debate in this country, rethinking many things: alliances, military spending, the role of the nuclear component in the armed forces."

But other Russian analysts were more critical of Moscow. By boosting hopes for independence in Abkhazia and South Ossetia, Medvedev and Prime Minister Vladimir Putin have taken the first step toward redrawing post-Soviet borders, Piontkovsky said. There is a strong parallel between today's resurgent Russia and the rise of Germany in the 1930s from broken country to would-be empire, he argued.

"Under the same slogan of rising from the knees . . . Hitler was getting away with everything, and every demonstration of weakness from the West emboldened him to the next adventure," Piontkovsky said. "Now we can say that Putin has gotten away with dismembering countries."

megan.stack@latimes.com

Times staff writer Sergei L. Loiko contributed to this report.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-russia25-2008aug25,0,3458732,print.story
 
This is the President of the Ukraine's comments: quite astute actually:
Georgia and The Stakes For Ukraine

By Victor Yushchenko
Monday, August 25, 2008; A17



KYIV, Ukraine -- The conflict in Georgia revealed problems that extend well beyond our region. Recent events have made clear how perilous it is for the international community to ignore "frozen conflicts." The issues of breakaway regions in newly independent states are complex; too often, they have been treated as bargaining chips in geopolitical games. But such "games" result in the loss of human lives, humanitarian disasters, economic ruin and the collapse of international security guarantees.

Ukraine has become a hostage in the war waged by Russia. This has prompted Ukrainian authorities and all of our country's people, including those living in the Crimea, to ponder the dangers emanating from the fact that the Russian Black Sea fleet is based on our territory.

The tragic events in Georgia also exposed the lack of effective preventive mechanisms by the United Nations, the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, and other international organizations.

We in Ukraine hope that the Russian Federation will heed the opinion of the global community so that the issues at hand can be settled through negotiations. We want an end to the looting and destruction of Georgian infrastructure. We must do everything possible to prevent provocations and avoid further massacres.

The ongoing conflict between Russia and Georgia affects my country's interests. Military operations have taken place close to our borders, and the Russian Black Sea fleet was directly involved. The question of Ukraine's national security was acutely raised. Given the activities of the Russian fleet, I had to issue a decree regulating its functioning on the territory of Ukraine.

Under these circumstances, Ukraine could not stay silent. We, along with other nations, engaged to seek resolution of the conflict. From the first day of hostilities, Ukraine called for an immediate cease-fire by all parties and dispatched humanitarian aid to victims regardless of their ethnicity.

Ukraine upheld its firm support for the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Georgia.

On Aug. 12, I, together with my colleagues from the three Baltic states and Poland, visited Tbilisi. Our proposals seeking a solution to the conflict were in harmony with the European Union settlement plan. We highly praise the efforts of the United States and the E.U. presidency, led by the French, to achieve a cease-fire. Their actions proved efficient in putting a halt to war and bloodshed.

Ukraine favors a wider international representation in the peacekeeping force in the conflict area. A new multilateral format mandated by the United Nations or the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe is the only way to guarantee security in the conflict zone.

I strongly hope that that plan will be strictly implemented by the conflicting parties. We are ready to join international efforts to provide relief and help victims resume their peaceful lives. Ukraine also stands ready to take part in the U.N. or OSCE missions by sending peacekeepers.

It is clear that in addition to the political dimensions of issues involving breakaway regions, we need to cope with the social and economic aspects of this phenomenon. Many of these provinces are beyond the control of the respective governments or the international community. In many cases, the absence of monitoring has turned these territories into havens for smuggling as well as illegal trafficking in arms, people and drugs. Corruption and human-rights abuses are rampant. These areas are marked by their lack of democratic electoral procedures and their unfree or biased media. The ethnic dimension of the problem is often exaggerated to help conceal the criminal practices.

Moreover, an area home to such activities poses a threat to the prosperity and development of adjacent nations. Official authorities are compelled to counter attacks from separatist paramilitaries. But they are not always successful. Before large-scale combat erupted in Georgia, Russian peacekeepers failed to prevent the shelling of Georgian territory by South Ossetian separatists. Indeed, that activity intensified in the days before the greater conflict.

This weekend Ukraine celebrated the anniversary of its independence. This conflict has proved once again that the best means of ensuring the national security of Ukraine and other countries is to participate in the collective security system of free democratic nations, exemplified today by NATO. In accordance with national legislation and its foreign policy priorities, Ukraine will continue following the path of Euro-Atlantic integration. This is the path of democracy, freedom and independence.

The writer is president of Ukraine.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/24/AR2008082401856_pf.html
 
George Wallace said:
Lady

Your tactics suck.  Most here are relatively neutral in this affair and trying to come to some reasonable truths as to what is happening in Georgia.  You are acting like the loyal wife and protecting her Mafioso husband.  Try not to be so one sided; it may help.  Right now you are coming off as a raging fanatic. 

This little exhibit of tit for tat is not helping the discussion.

I call inappropriate behaviour on this bullshit! Please see Army.ca Moderator Guidelines, particularily the following quote: "Army.ca has a zero tolerance policy for personal attacks, whether against another Army.ca member or a public figure. Posts that contain a personal attack should be summarily deleted, and the user should normally receive a warning. Personal attacks detract from the professionalism of the site and can sometimes cause serious problems for Army.ca as a whole." Also see TONE AND CONDUCT: "You will not post any information that is offensive, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law." I call that your post is offensive, defamatory, vulgar, hateful, obscene, and sexually oriented. Why are you calling me a "lady"? What are you implying about the "lady" status that you are trying to offend me with it? Besides, speaking of Russia so much on this board, in Russia you would be dealt with a lot fewer words after such remarks.

But since we are in a mature enviournment, I now call into question your moderator status. Further comments from you go in the "ingore" pile. My diplomatic relations with George Wallace have been severed.
 
oligarch said:
But since we are in a mature enviournment, I now call into question your moderator status. Further comments from you go in the "ingore" pile. My diplomatic relations with George Wallace have been severed.

Please just got find another sandbox to play in........you have pee'ed in this one more than enough.
 
Back
Top