General Hillier needs a lesson in democracy a la Pike
- Thread starter Pike
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Drop the Hammer! :gunner:
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Funny thing that..... if you go by what Pike has said, the military is expected to remain silent and do as it's told...... click it's heels and obey unquestionably.
It is about time that we have a CDS that contributes to the national discussion on what the Forces are doing and what we should be doing in the future. Our previous CDS' have been silent too long and have allowed us to dissapear into the landscape.
It is about time that we have a CDS that contributes to the national discussion on what the Forces are doing and what we should be doing in the future. Our previous CDS' have been silent too long and have allowed us to dissapear into the landscape.
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geo said:
There was an Armed Forces in the 20th century just like that. They were told by their Country's
Surely, Pike does not want it to be like that?
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People scream for decisive leadership, then when they get it, they scream that they had no input. Typical.
Pike is blatantly trying to ramp up interest in her web site. I bit and was trolling with what appeared to be, literally, the only other active member. The site is going stagnant and is obviously going under. Most of the posts are over a month old or worse, and most of the posters are hammer heads. She can't stick around here, because a) she doesn't want to, it's all about spitting out that link again and b) she will be destroyed. After her initial inflammatory post, she contributes nothing useful. I will bear some responsibility for her being back, as I challenged her to come back and engage in a meaningful discussion through her PM system.
Feel free to log on as zipperhead_cop if you feel the need to check it out. My password is gotoarmyca.
Here is a snapshot from the site stats from about five minutes ago:
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Seriously amature night.
Pike is blatantly trying to ramp up interest in her web site. I bit and was trolling with what appeared to be, literally, the only other active member. The site is going stagnant and is obviously going under. Most of the posts are over a month old or worse, and most of the posters are hammer heads. She can't stick around here, because a) she doesn't want to, it's all about spitting out that link again and b) she will be destroyed. After her initial inflammatory post, she contributes nothing useful. I will bear some responsibility for her being back, as I challenged her to come back and engage in a meaningful discussion through her PM system.
Feel free to log on as zipperhead_cop if you feel the need to check it out. My password is gotoarmyca.
Here is a snapshot from the site stats from about five minutes ago:
Our users have posted a total of 381 articles
We have 42 registered users
The newest registered user is runwithscissors
In total there is 1 user online :: 1 Registered, 0 Hidden and 0 Guests [ Administrator ] [ Moderator ]
Most users ever online was 5 on Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:49 am
Registered Users: zipperhead_cop
This data is based on users active over the past five minutes
Seriously amature night.
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TCBF said:
HMMM, still working for me. Maybe someone else was already logged on. the password is all lowercase with no spaces or punctuation. I have logged onto that site from work and down south, so it shouldn't be IP sensitive. Maybe try again.
Make me sound good, baby! ;D
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Somehow this always turns out to be an attack on my character. So childish.
I took all your advice and "backed up" my claims with why I believed that. I think I did it pretty well. You keep using that excuse against me but its so shallow.
Why do so many of you just freak out at my posts?! I wonder what you all would be like in relationships..... ??? Just relax. Seriously. First off, if I go to other forums and post similar posts who cares? Really, Im starting discussions everywhere, thats the point, I want people to think about these issues. Second, I welcome you to my forums. pLease come, post opposite opinions. Dont you all get it, thats what Im trying to do!! Why would I spit back at you all the same stuff you hear everyday. I want to see a discussion. I want people to substantiate their beliefs.
If you want to kick me off these boards thats fine, Ill leave. But you cant be scared to hear the other side of your beliefs. Some of you challenge them, I respect that. Some of you are just childish, that doesnt help. And others just hate me for whatever reason, I obviously dont care. You think I read these posts and cry? I argue politics with people everyday, Im not going to be offended.
ANYWAY, as always after I explain myself, lets get back to the topic.....
I dont mind Gen Hiller putting a "face" or giving a "voice" to soldiers. Thats great. But if you listen to what he is saying he is being partesian. He is advocating for this government. As a professional he should not be doing this. It is influencing public debate, and thats wrong. You all talk about "arificially inflated numbers" with my webpage. Well if Canadians start supporting this mission for the wrong reasons, is that ok?
See I DO support this mission. And I think it was well put on the army.ca front page editorial. But none of you would ever think that I would support it right? Of course not. You all think Im just some idiot student. Thats fine, but recognize that its ok to learn about the other side, to acknowledge it. And I know you all feel a loyalty to your commander, but personally thats no reason to stick up for him 100% of the time.
I took all your advice and "backed up" my claims with why I believed that. I think I did it pretty well. You keep using that excuse against me but its so shallow.
Why do so many of you just freak out at my posts?! I wonder what you all would be like in relationships..... ??? Just relax. Seriously. First off, if I go to other forums and post similar posts who cares? Really, Im starting discussions everywhere, thats the point, I want people to think about these issues. Second, I welcome you to my forums. pLease come, post opposite opinions. Dont you all get it, thats what Im trying to do!! Why would I spit back at you all the same stuff you hear everyday. I want to see a discussion. I want people to substantiate their beliefs.
If you want to kick me off these boards thats fine, Ill leave. But you cant be scared to hear the other side of your beliefs. Some of you challenge them, I respect that. Some of you are just childish, that doesnt help. And others just hate me for whatever reason, I obviously dont care. You think I read these posts and cry? I argue politics with people everyday, Im not going to be offended.
ANYWAY, as always after I explain myself, lets get back to the topic.....
I dont mind Gen Hiller putting a "face" or giving a "voice" to soldiers. Thats great. But if you listen to what he is saying he is being partesian. He is advocating for this government. As a professional he should not be doing this. It is influencing public debate, and thats wrong. You all talk about "arificially inflated numbers" with my webpage. Well if Canadians start supporting this mission for the wrong reasons, is that ok?
See I DO support this mission. And I think it was well put on the army.ca front page editorial. But none of you would ever think that I would support it right? Of course not. You all think Im just some idiot student. Thats fine, but recognize that its ok to learn about the other side, to acknowledge it. And I know you all feel a loyalty to your commander, but personally thats no reason to stick up for him 100% of the time.
C
couchcommander
Guest
Hey Pike,
This board, from my experience, is very open to discussion, even with dissenting opinions. Though some may be rough about it, they will indeed engage you. Their, and my issue with the post, was that it appeared as though you were using this forum simply to advertise your page, rather than actually attempt to engage the members in a meaningful debate. I am sure they will be more than willing to debate this issue with you now that you appear committed to the idea!...
....and on topic.... Chief of Defence Staff General Hillier is RESPONSIBLE to the Canadian public as their principle advisor in the military domain (albeit through the MND and the Government in Council). As principle advisor it is his DUTY to inform us of what he believes to be in the nations best interest. Personally, I would rather he do this publically, than just solely to the MND. Further, I would consider it a far more serious occurrence if he failed to fight for what he thought was best. As Chief of Defence Staff, however, I am sure that General Hillier is well aware of where he gets his orders from... and this is in fact shown by his feverish attempts to influence those who he KNOWS in the end decide, the Citizens of Canada. I, personally, really don't like the Conservatives for many many reasons. I also am about as far from a member of the CF as one can get, far up in my ivory tower. I, however, am happy that the CDS and the Government are on the same page.
This board, from my experience, is very open to discussion, even with dissenting opinions. Though some may be rough about it, they will indeed engage you. Their, and my issue with the post, was that it appeared as though you were using this forum simply to advertise your page, rather than actually attempt to engage the members in a meaningful debate. I am sure they will be more than willing to debate this issue with you now that you appear committed to the idea!...
....and on topic.... Chief of Defence Staff General Hillier is RESPONSIBLE to the Canadian public as their principle advisor in the military domain (albeit through the MND and the Government in Council). As principle advisor it is his DUTY to inform us of what he believes to be in the nations best interest. Personally, I would rather he do this publically, than just solely to the MND. Further, I would consider it a far more serious occurrence if he failed to fight for what he thought was best. As Chief of Defence Staff, however, I am sure that General Hillier is well aware of where he gets his orders from... and this is in fact shown by his feverish attempts to influence those who he KNOWS in the end decide, the Citizens of Canada. I, personally, really don't like the Conservatives for many many reasons. I also am about as far from a member of the CF as one can get, far up in my ivory tower. I, however, am happy that the CDS and the Government are on the same page.
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Your logic is all back-asswards, Pike: you fail.
I repeat, slowly if necessary: the CDS, like all senior public servants, must be apolitical; (s)he must not advocate (or publicly oppose) the partisan positions of any party. You have complained that: ” He is advocating for this government.” He is, as senior officials are encouraged (not obliged) to do, supporting the policies of this Government of Canada just as he, publicly, loudly and clearly, supported the policies of the last Government of Canada. If you cannot make and keep that distinction then you are blissfully ignorant of the Canadian Constitution and the nature and operations of our government – may I suggest you repeat PoliSci 101 again, and again and again until it sinks in.
You are in with the grown-ups, young lady, and you are in over your head.
I repeat, slowly if necessary: the CDS, like all senior public servants, must be apolitical; (s)he must not advocate (or publicly oppose) the partisan positions of any party. You have complained that: ” He is advocating for this government.” He is, as senior officials are encouraged (not obliged) to do, supporting the policies of this Government of Canada just as he, publicly, loudly and clearly, supported the policies of the last Government of Canada. If you cannot make and keep that distinction then you are blissfully ignorant of the Canadian Constitution and the nature and operations of our government – may I suggest you repeat PoliSci 101 again, and again and again until it sinks in.
You are in with the grown-ups, young lady, and you are in over your head.
All I can say is this: In 15 yrs and counting of serving this country, we finally have a CDS who I dare say is respected by all the troops. I can remember periods where alot of guys didn't even know the CDS's name because they were that irrelevant. This military is finally starting to take a turn for the better after decades of systematic decimation. It's good to see a government and CDS (at least so far) actually doing something instead of talking.
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Pike,
Although the voracity of the response to you makes me slightly uncomfortable, I must confess that I see no signs of partisanship in Gen Hillier's messaging.
What I do see is a CDS who is doing his job - and is savvy enough to be able to use the media to get his messages out to multiple audiences: the Canadian people who he serves, the soldiers who he leads (and their families), the Allies who depend upon us, and the decision makers and influencers in Ottawa and elsewhere. That is a good thing.
The recent rebuke from Mr Harper (last week I believe, when he indicated that military policy should and shall be decided by the government of the day), was seen as great news by some very senior military personnel, for it was the sound of ownership.
As a military professional, all I want is clear direction as to what must be achieved, and why. It sounds to me like we are getting that in spades - indeed we have been for the last 12-18 months.
It is about time.
Dave
Although the voracity of the response to you makes me slightly uncomfortable, I must confess that I see no signs of partisanship in Gen Hillier's messaging.
What I do see is a CDS who is doing his job - and is savvy enough to be able to use the media to get his messages out to multiple audiences: the Canadian people who he serves, the soldiers who he leads (and their families), the Allies who depend upon us, and the decision makers and influencers in Ottawa and elsewhere. That is a good thing.
The recent rebuke from Mr Harper (last week I believe, when he indicated that military policy should and shall be decided by the government of the day), was seen as great news by some very senior military personnel, for it was the sound of ownership.
As a military professional, all I want is clear direction as to what must be achieved, and why. It sounds to me like we are getting that in spades - indeed we have been for the last 12-18 months.
It is about time.
Dave
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Pike your intial post would be correct IF the politicians were debating whether to do the mission. But PM Martin and now Harper made that decision and troops are deployed, so the CDS has every right, even a duty to discuss the mission both to support the government's decision and to help educate the public. It is not uncommon for the Chairman JCS to discuss Iraq and Afghanistan for the same reasons I have already outlined.
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As well, are you privvy to the orders that the CDS gets from the government? In case you hadn't noticed, our PM is out trying to educate the Canadian Public on what we're doing in Afghanistan, and why it's so vital. Do you think, somewhere in that closed little mind, that perhaps, the PM said "CDS, can you make a few public statements telling the CDN people what we're doing? Show the canadians that we support our troops". And the response? "Sir, yes Sir."
It's good to hear you posting about that which you know nothing.
T
It's good to hear you posting about that which you know nothing.
T
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This is just a quick question for Pike,
Would you rather the Government and the CDS lie or hide information about our role in Afghanistan?
IIRC,the last country that was in Afghanistan spun tales and lies about humanitarian missions,how much good they were doing and how Afghanistan wanted to be welcomed into the union.Once the truth came out after the fact,well I'm sure you know what happened.
Now if they can only hurry up and dissolve the long gun registry.....
Would you rather the Government and the CDS lie or hide information about our role in Afghanistan?
IIRC,the last country that was in Afghanistan spun tales and lies about humanitarian missions,how much good they were doing and how Afghanistan wanted to be welcomed into the union.Once the truth came out after the fact,well I'm sure you know what happened.
Now if they can only hurry up and dissolve the long gun registry.....
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Dear Pike,
I think you will find that you are quite welcome here as long as you (a) follow the site's code of conduct, (b) ensure that your postings have at least SOME basis in fact, and (c) desist with the 'post-and-run' tactics - stick around and defend your statements.
Personally I would encourage you to visit this site more often and read the posts. I think you will learn a lot about the military that you did not know.
I thought your comment about wondering how we all are in relationships was pretty lame. Besides being completely unrelated to the topic, it is suggestive that the users here are abusive towards their partners or something. That's kind of like trundling out the 'nazi' argument, and when you make statements like that, whatever point you are trying to make loses pretty much all credibility. Stick to the facts.
"Have a nice day!"
edit - BTW I was never told, not have I heard of anyone else being told that they don't have a political opinion. Has anyone else been told this? in fact I seem to remember being told the opposite, that the military expects it's soldiers to think for be thinking soldiers and not mindless robots.
I think you will find that you are quite welcome here as long as you (a) follow the site's code of conduct, (b) ensure that your postings have at least SOME basis in fact, and (c) desist with the 'post-and-run' tactics - stick around and defend your statements.
Personally I would encourage you to visit this site more often and read the posts. I think you will learn a lot about the military that you did not know.
I thought your comment about wondering how we all are in relationships was pretty lame. Besides being completely unrelated to the topic, it is suggestive that the users here are abusive towards their partners or something. That's kind of like trundling out the 'nazi' argument, and when you make statements like that, whatever point you are trying to make loses pretty much all credibility. Stick to the facts.
"Have a nice day!"
edit - BTW I was never told, not have I heard of anyone else being told that they don't have a political opinion. Has anyone else been told this? in fact I seem to remember being told the opposite, that the military expects it's soldiers to think for be thinking soldiers and not mindless robots.
Trinity
Army.ca Veteran
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I've noticed that some of the pro Hillier posts are from
a) civilians and
b) american military
so this sites support is not 100% blind loyalty from the troops
or Canadian soldiers supporting Hillier simply because as you
stated Pike.
edit.. clarify a statment
a) civilians and
b) american military
so this sites support is not 100% blind loyalty from the troops
or Canadian soldiers supporting Hillier simply because as you
stated Pike.
edit.. clarify a statment
Trinity,
I see you've been in the reserves for 13 yrs. You are an officer, correct? Do they not teach loyalty to the senior leadership anymore? It's not a matter of pro-Hillier or against Hillier or whatever. The bottom line is he's the man in charge so he deserves a certain amount of respect. If not for the position he holds, then at least for the fact that he is doing an outstanding job. I think the very least we can do as serving members is give the man his due, especially on a public forum. Correct me if I'm wrong...
I see you've been in the reserves for 13 yrs. You are an officer, correct? Do they not teach loyalty to the senior leadership anymore? It's not a matter of pro-Hillier or against Hillier or whatever. The bottom line is he's the man in charge so he deserves a certain amount of respect. If not for the position he holds, then at least for the fact that he is doing an outstanding job. I think the very least we can do as serving members is give the man his due, especially on a public forum. Correct me if I'm wrong...
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