Garter Crest-Should It be Our Hatbadge?

[swellal]

Hi to everyone. I just surfed in and couldn‘t help but read the thread here. I‘m an old time gunner (got out in 66). I was with 4 RCHA in Pet. The message I get here is that some of you don‘t have enough pride in your badge! When I was 20 I felt the same way, but when I walk downtown Kingston now and see a uniform, I look at the badge. Trust me, I stand a bit taller when I see the gun and I know it says "Ubique" under it!

A few messages back, someone made the comment about unit or regimental history not being taught. When I look back, I can say the same about my time in the regiment. After 6 months in basic and a year in the Regiment, I didn‘t know our Sr NCOs and officers had fought in Korea, and there were still a couple from WW2. **** , they didn‘t even tell us recruits that we were welcome in any Legion! Nor did we have the internet to find any of this out on our own.

I guess my message is "Take pride in your badge and Lanyard, they are what identify you as a Gunner because everyone is wearing the same uniform."

Al Lloyd (a former gunner)

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Welcome and remember there‘s no such thing as a former gunner. CHEERS

 

[jeff001]

swellall, see your point, but, we do not wear the laynard anymore. That tradition, which I have been "accused of not having or following" is no longer used. After all the posts about Regt history, fired my way, I appreciate the point about the laynard none the less. Now, only some of the Infantry units wear the laynard. In Kingston is there not the RCHA club? Is it not full of Regt History? Dating back to God knows when? I have taken new Gunners to that club,every time you hear it, "Why don‘t we wear that (the Royal Chypher) on our uniform".Very nice club, great people, reccomend it to any one going to Kingston. Some one explain why alot of new and old Gunners wear a British RHA Garter Crest on the inside of their beret? Since we have begun deploying more over seas, alot of young guys go looking for British RHA Gnr‘s to try and get a Garter Crest cap badge.They have seen the Hat Badge, and they feel "cheated" maybe the way to put it. Part of a Big number of people, and that they are just a number in there,No ditinction because we are RCHA.With the new CAD Pat you cant see if some one is a Sgt/ Gnr/Capt, if you don‘t know them, until you are about 10 feet away, you definatley can‘t tell if they are wearing RCA,4 AD Regt, or RCHA, what do they get in return, are you Militia? Are you Air Defence?

 

[muskrat89]

Tech - I was only in 13 years, and I can‘t count the number of times that "I felt cheated". Do you think all of the gripes you list are new? That they have just popped up since you began taking notice? You are right - some things affect troop morale, and "because it‘s always been that way" shouldn‘t be the excuse. If they are valid complaints, they should be examined, at least. On the other hand, troops have been bi**hing and complaining about things since miltary forces started being formed. Have you talked to your BSM or RSM about any of this? Or, maybe you‘re taking advantage of this means to spout off with minimal face to face challenge? Do you think the Director of Artillery is going to read this, push back his chair and exclaim "That young man is right! This must be changed!" Maybe you‘re just venting, and that‘s OK too. If you feel as strongly as you say you do, I would suggest you find out the mechanics of making the types of changes you are recommending, and start working towards that goal, through your C of C.

I think what raises the ire of some older members, especially on message boards like this - is this indignant sense of entitlement that some people have. Soldiers not entitled to anything, other than the terms of your contract. We‘re a volunteer Army. No one is "owed" anything except food, shelter, etc. Morale? You‘re a MBdr, it seems. I‘m willing to bet that you do SOMETHING that your Gunners don‘t feel is fair or practical. We‘re discussing cap badges now. What next? "The troops feel haircuts are oppressive, and it‘s bad for morale". "If we stopped working in inclement weather, the morale would be much better". During WWII, whole units were completely re-badged, to a totally different trade! Imagine how those guys felt!

Changing the cap badge involves some history, and some massive military/bureacratic doings, including, I imagine, some kind of Royal stamp of approval. If you are sincere regarding the gravity of this, then you‘ll have to work hard to make your voice heard, and institute change. It won‘t be easy, for sure.

 

[RCA]

I fail to understand the need to be single out and be recognised as RCHA as opposed to being a Gunner. Is this some form of snobbery, or you don’t want be lumped in with the “Militia” and others.

What would be the criteria for wearing the garter. Member of 1,2, and 5 RCHA (RALC) or being in the regular force artillery. And if that is so, would augmentee gunners be allowed to wear it or will they be singled out. Or if only Regt mbrs are authorised to wear it, what about W Bty, RCAS, and other ERE gunners. And what about Air Defenders, they too would require there own hat badge. All I see in this is the fragmentation of The Royal Regiment. And are we moving away from “once a gunner, always a gunner”.

We are the only Regiment in the CF, the rest belong to Corps and Branches (eg PPCLI belong to the Infantry Corps) and that is why we have a single capbadge. Regimental History is part of the basic gunner’s crse, but doesn’t go in-depth. Canadian gunners have a rich heritage full of traditions dating back to the Royal Artillery and steps are being made to get it out.

As to a practical process of changing to a garter hatbadge, personally. I can’t see it. The approval goes all the way up to the Queen, with endorsements all the way up the chain. As of right now, The Royal Regiment is seeking a change to our hatbadge as it stands. Before everyone has a s***fit, tradition and heritage (as well as DHH) state that Canadian hatbadge must be different then the RA and was up to the mid 1930’s when we changed “Canada” to “Ubique”. As well DHH has decided that the Queen has never actually approved our current hatbadge. Therefore, a new hatbadge is being designed and the difference will a change of gun to a 9 pounder, a gun Canadian’s actually used and the crown (which was actually changing anyway). You can hardly tell the difference when looking at the two. I expect it to be out sometime in 2005.

 

[muskrat89]

Thanks, RCA - you summed it up much better than I could.

 

[jeff001]

muskrat89;
What gripes? Has the topic of changing the hat badge ever been discussed? Never that I have heard. YES we have inquired to our chain of command,usually we get, " I don‘t know we should be".From all ranks.
As for your comment about "maybe you‘re taking advantage of this means to spout off with minimal face to face challenge". You said that you had 13 years in,does that statement show the limit of your professional ability.Perhaps you could give some example of what that is based on, re-reading all the comments are you sure I‘m the one doing the spouting.
After the basic rambling about,the Director of Artillery,the indignant sense of entitlement,contracts, something owed and then still off topic,something about haircuts being oppressive and bad for morale, then finally to the weather "if we stopped working in the inclement weather,the morale would be must better".Kinda like we do now, in the rain, in the snow, in the sleet?

Don‘t you live in Arizona?

 

[jeff001]

RCA
This is definatly not some form of snobbery,sorry to all who may have gotten that idea. The criteria would basically be any member who has served with the RCHA,would be entitled,wether or not they have remained in the Regt,to include W Bty, The School,and ERE Gnr‘s.As for the Air Defence,I cannot speak for them.When my unit went oversea‘s the augmentee‘s wore RCHA‘s,right now there are miltia units wearing they‘re unit Balmorals,berets, with the RCD Battle Group they have no problem with the distinction they are recieving.Nor have they been forced to wear a black beret.They aren‘t armoured so why wear one.

I have to disagree with your comment about the fragmentation of the Royal Regt.Still part of the Royal Regiment now, we are still called RCHA.The common factor for the Royal Regt would be a blue beret.
If the hat badge we have now is being altered, then obviously it can be done.

 

[DFR]

Tech get a life and get out of the office! haha

 

[DFR]

Must have went to bed hehehe

 

[RCA]

http://www.artillery.net/english/rhqbanners.htm#Badges

I still fail to see the need to differentiate. I can maybe see different badges for bird gunners and mud gunners, but what is the real difference between 2 RCHA and 2 RCA other then weapons systems and time on those systems. (by the way as for regimental designation 3 RCA is illigal to wear, it is 3 Fd Regt that is allowed.)

I have been around for awhile, and this is the first I have heard of this. Is this an eastern thing? or is 1 RCHA hot to trot to change also.

This is a good discussion, but in all honesty, I cannot see the powers that be (and they are Reg F gunner officers) let this happen The actual badge of the Royal Canadian Artillery is our gun with the Canada Coat of Arms above that with the crown above that.

//http://www.artillery.net/english/rhqbanners.htm#Badges gives some history

As for gunner wearing balmorals, the only ones I know would be in a pipe band, and maybe 1 Ad Regt. I don’t know any gunner giving up his capbadge when they goes on tour, just as all reservists retain their hatbadge, You might want to recheck your facts on that one.

And lastly when there were militia units of the Van Doos and RCRs (4 Bn both) they wore the regimental capbadge.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

TECH Dont get me wrong on the need for changes. I was never one just to say "ok if thats the way it always been done",so I can appreciate where your coming from. I know you mean well and I‘m sure the other gunners on this forum realize that too, but I think you stepped on a very touchy subject for older and former gunners. On the bright side it is nice to see a larger number of people on this thread. It would be nice to here from some bird gunners thoughts on this topic. Anybody know any? CHEERS

 

[muskrat89]

Tech - In a long, roundabout way, I was agreeing with you. If anything is taking things off topic - it would be a side-discussion regarding my current place of residence. Besides, it‘s only sunny here about 300 days a year. The other days, we have some bad weather!

You are correct - "gripes" should have read "gripe". That gripe has not been discussed here, but I was discussing it 15 years ago. We all survived. Maybe it‘s a bigger problem now. I did point out, that leaving some things in place, because "that‘s how it‘s always been" is wrong. My ramblings regarding morale were more question than anything. People, not necessarily you, often play "the morale card". Not being in anymore, only you and other currently serving Gunners can know how big a problem this actually is. Sometimes things are legitimate morale problems, sometimes they are not. To me, saying a problem like this is hurting morale is a dangerous road to go down. That‘s my opinion. Maybe I didn‘t present it in a manner that you recognized or agreed with, but questioning my professional ability was an interesting slant. In spite of my disagreement with some of your statements, I don‘t think I questioned yours.

The Director of Artillery "rambling" was only to point out that, even if you were 100% correct, no one on this board has the power to fix it (that I know of).

In retrospect, I can see why you took offense, but I was feeling you out, and giving you conditional agreement. People come on this board for many reasons, including me. Some people vent, blow off steam, feel better , and drop it. Some people come here for advice. Some people come here and proclaim all the sins of the army with, as I said, this tone of entitlement. Those people, I suspect, will do that, wherever they are in life. Some people have concerns that, although serious to them, end up down the road, being not so bad. Some people have legitimate concerns, and hopefully, some of the members steer them in the right direction. Many people on internet message boards (and not just this one) act in ways, and say things that I know, would be different in real life, face to face. Anononymity seems to make people more brazen.

SO to sum up(I see I‘m rambling again)- my feelings were this. I note your degree of concern, but I can‘t help. If the troops are truly that much more upset about this than they were 20 years ago, then maybe you should act, but it will be a long, uphill battle. One has to pick which fights to put their time and energy in, to get the most "bang for their buck". Hopefully, I didn‘t get under your skin as bad, this time

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Regimental traditions seem to be a thing of the past in many units. How many Rifle Regiments wear black rank insignia? None. Do the C Scot R or Calg Highrs wear the Oakleaf on their combat dress? No. Etc. etc.

I do notice that the Royal Winnipeg Rifles still appear to wear their black lanyards; it is a mystery why the RCA don‘t wear theirs.

My dad wore the lanyard in 1957 in Shilo; also the dark navy blue beret.

Why doesn‘t the artillery just get off their *** and start wearing the lanyard again? The only reason it was dropped as far as I can tell was because the CF Uniform didn‘t have shoulder straps from 1970 to the reintroduction of the DEU.

Those days are over.

It‘s long past time we started readopting these traditions that fell by the wayside after Unification.

 

[jeff001]

My point about the Balmorals and Beret‘s did not come across as I intended. Previously you had made a comment about, would augmentee‘s wear the Cypher. My point is that when my unit went too Cyprus in 1993, all the augmentee‘s,Artillery,Armoured,Infantry,as well as support Militia wore RCHA epilettes with the UN ball cap/beret. My point about the Militia on tour now, still retain there unit hat badge and head dress.
I can‘t say for certain if this is an Eastern thing or not, as for 1 RCHA being willing to change,I‘m not sure. I can say for certain that pers posted from 2 Horse to 1 RCHA have had the same views. I personally have noticed some of the troops wearing the Cypher,(on the inside of their beret), since 1998. I have also seen troops wearing a Cypher on their old Field hats. I believe that this was a militia unit that had a crest like the Cypher, but, with the lack of detail on that patch it was hard to tell. Present company included. If it was not on there field hat, it was on the NBC bag.
Don‘t quote me but, I‘m also pretty sure that the kit shop (in Pet) also sold patches like this, many moons ago. It could have even been the Royal Regtiment kit shop.
The actual hat badge, is that not used for the master gunners? I also believe that 5e Regt has also started using the Cypher,when being represented in the annual Gunner Mag.
The picture with the Gunner in the blue beret and laynard, pretty much speaks for itself.

 

[Gunner109]

It is true that this has been a long standing topic. And also true that all RHA Regt‘s wear the Cypher as their capbadge. And MOST Brit Arty units wear the Navy Blue Beret. Some time ago it was brought up in 3 RCHA to the Command, and the answer was that it would not be changed, I remember U Bty trying to get their own hat badge for the AD Regts. But again it was not to be. If it is to be changed then the Royal Regt of Canadian Arty would have to formaly ask for this change to occur through (I think)the Director Mill History and traditions. I know that alot of Brit HA regts have mentioned that they dont understand why RCHA regts wear the Arty hat badge, or in their terms the TA badge. But I would like to see it changed for the Regts, both the badge and the beret.

 

[elscotto937]

Excellent, Sgt Shortt, an opinion I can whole heartedly agree with...I like some reassurance that tech and I are not alone in the world...

 

[Spr.Earl]

Hey guy‘s don‘t feel bad.

Just look at the change‘s that happened to the Engineer‘s.

Whent from R.C.E. to C.M.E.(No more Royal Garter)
Lost our Cap Badge.
Lost our Flaming Grenade coller dog‘s.
Lost our Blue Beret.

 

[Veteran`s son]

In my opinion, the new Engineers cap badge looks something like the one they wore in WW1.

Spr. Earl

When you joined the Engineers, was the badge you had the same as the current one?

Also, does anyone think they will bring back the old metal cap badge?

 

[Recce41]

Well as an outsider.
I believe the gunners should get back their beret, the navy their flat hat, etc,etc. In the Armour corp they came up with the armour fist. For us there was not big change. In the 17-1800s, the Cav School wore a Cypher or their cap Badge. NCOs that wore the Cypher were Drill Masters. They taught the recruits basic drill, weapons, and sword drill. The Ride Masters were NCOs and Officers that taught horsemanship. Recruits wore an all white uniform. A plan leather hat or helmet.
Officers were taught by officers, and wore the Regiment they bought into.
Now, DP1s (TQ3s, QL3s) wear the fist, NCOs wear the unit cap badge. But wear the Armour fist on their DEUs. Only the School Commandant, RSM, wear the Armour fist at the school.
:evil: :tank: