FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities

[Eye In The Sky]

It's also worth noting that while it's not replacing only the buffalo, it's only replacing one role of the SAR Hercs.  It's not meant to replace their other functions.

The one role of SAR Hercs.  Isn't that .... SAR? 

 

[Eagle_Eye_View]

SAR and Air to Air refuelling.

 

[jmt18325]

SAR and Air to Air refuelling.

I thought some still did the occasional transport?  Or is that completely done now?

 

[SupersonicMax]

They do.  I flew on a SAR-configured Herc from Winnipeg to Resolute Bay.

 

[YZT580]

and it took, what, 4:30 to 5:00 hours.  Be grateful it was the herc, our new SAR aircraft will do the same trip in 7:00 and running from Trenton it will take over 8.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I misunderstood the role comment.  But the last comment is getting us back to the steak and not the peas.  Time to LKP can literally be the difference between life and death.

Recently I was part of a mission on the east coast that saw us retasked to a SAR.  PIW, no flotation device off a small vessel, dark clothes on and the sun was just starting to set when it came over the radio.  Survival times without poopy suits were low (despite the time of year, it can still be an hour or less).

The ability to get ONSTA quicker in cases like that is extremely important.  Extremely.  + \ - 70-80kts can be the difference between life and death.  A PIW (person in the water) with no flotation device isn't going to get many chances to survive when they are offshore. 

It also demonstrates the requirement for search lights and trained crews, spotters.  IR and RADAR aren't worth jack shit in a maritime SAR like that.

 

[Sub_Guy]

Why don't immersion suit manufacturers include some sort of inflatable radar balloon with their immersion suits?

Similar to this product.  https://www.plastimo.com/en/safety/radar-reflectors/reflecteur-radar-gonflable.html

Given the fidelity of our radar systems it would definately make it easier to locate a survivor. 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Cost?

And.  Make it orange please.  Very bright orange.

 

[jmt18325]

I misunderstood the role comment.  But the last comment is getting us back to the steak and not the peas.  Time to LKP can literally be the difference between life and death.

I'll just point on that the National Research Council came to the conclusion that said quality was an arbitrary criterion.  That's probably because we're doing the job on the west coast an in the north (secondary role) with slower aircraft now.

 

[jmt18325]

They do.  I flew on a SAR-configured Herc from Winnipeg to Resolute Bay.

It looks like there's one being used in BC right now, also.

 

[Zoomie]

AAR role will disappear - at least from the current squadron that is tasked to provide.

Transport will continue to be done - with SAR being the first line of tasking.

Speed is arbitrary and inconclusive at this moment - if speed was the ultimate factor we would have Hornets equipped with SKADs on all our coasts.

There's still some glimmer of hope for a 7 man crew (AESOP being the 7th, sorry loadies).  MTF as the role is expanded upon with new capabilities.

 

[captloadie]

We can barely meet the LM demand on the current fleets. I don't think we'll be devastated not being hunched over in the back  >

 

[Zoomie]

Even better for your guys then - with the removal of the H models - you won't have three SAR squadrons plus one school to worry about.

 

[Sub_Guy]

if speed was the ultimate factor we would have Hornets equipped with SKADs on all our coasts.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Cost?

And.  Make it orange please.  Very bright orange.

SAR orange = +10% to cost, SAR Marine= add another %15, SAR aviation = add %75

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I'll just point on that the National Research Council came to the conclusion that said quality was an arbitrary criterion.  That's probably because we're doing the job on the west coast an in the north (secondary role) with slower aircraft now.

Great.  As someone who has been on SAR missions at the coal face I will dismiss anyone who says speed to the scene is not important.  At least in some cases, such as the one I mentioned above.  That wasn't a fictitious story for benefit of supporting my opinion.   

We used muskets and horses in combat back in the day.  Is that valid argument today to not improve combat force capabilities? 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

AAR role will disappear - at least from the current squadron that is tasked to provide.

Transport will continue to be done - with SAR being the first line of tasking.

Speed is arbitrary and inconclusive at this moment - if speed was the ultimate factor we would have Hornets equipped with SKADs on all our coasts.

There's still some glimmer of hope for a 7 man crew (AESOP being the 7th, sorry loadies).  MTF as the role is expanded upon with new capabilities.

I know you've oodles more SAR experience than I do but I still have to say I think speed is important.  Not all the time but some of the time.  Missions like the one I mentioned earlier are rare but happen and minutes can be crucial. 

Sensor ops manning sensors makes sense of course but I am also aware of the challenges our trade faces and supply/demand realities.  I still think the SAR mission is a real day to day operational mission that we can plan for before the first 295s are in place.

 

[jmt18325]

I know you've oodles more SAR experience than I do but I still have to say I think speed is important.  Not all the time but some of the time.  Missions like the one I mentioned earlier are rare but happen and minutes can be crucial. 

Since this is an area that I have some expertise, I feel I can contribute.  Yes, minutes count.  With SAR, and general rescue, hours don't count so much.  The difference between many hours and many many hours is usually not as significant.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

That depends when you have a drift rate of 6kts from the last known point and wind that shears or conflicting tidal currents, you search areas grows very much wider by the hour. I was on one call where the search was for a skiff missing between Sandspit and Rivers Inlet. We found them ok and it was a bright sunny day with almost no chop, they were sitting on the edge of the Buffs search pattern, watching it fly back and forth just outside of the grid, a passing fishboat picked up them up on radar and alerted us and sent over a boat to investigate. Every hour not searching means your search takes longer and is more costly. There is a limited budget even for SAR.

 

[jmt18325]

I was being more....dire than that.  Hours usually means dead.  Not always, mind you, but with each hour, your percentage chance of being found alive gets a lot smaller.