Future Canadian Airborne Capability and Organisation! Or, is it Redundant? (a merged thread)

[Michael OLeary]

I say this whole thread is moot if Hercs cannot fly in formation... which they cannot correct ???  Otherwise a 'para' or 'airborne' unit is an airborne unit in name only.

http://members.aol.com/samc130/formation.html

In those days TAC C-130 crews still flew close formation, though it would not be long before the low-level in-trail formation would become the norm. Crews would go out on 5-hour locals that included a low-level training segment followed by an airdrop on one of the DZ's on Fort Bragg, a period of close formation flying. It was a thrill to see a flight of Herks return to the field for landing, as they would come over the airfield in an echelon formation, then "pitch-out" in a 360-degree Overhead Recovery. TAC troop carrier pilots flew their airplanes the same way fighter pilots did.

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/hercules/hercules6.html

 

[Recce41]

I have the numbers for the JATF. It was 395 to start. Most are Inf positions. ie out of the 39 WOs 21 are hard Inf. 18 are other badge. As of now, I'm the only Armour WO that has asked for it. Most are to hesitent about asking. There is to be a troop of Engs, Armour, and Arty, as of the last info I received.
3 RCR is the lead until the PPCLI/R22R are on reorg phase.

 

[Spr.Earl]

I hope it comes to fruition,as it will bring somthing for all Cbt.Arms to strive for.

 

[Joe Blow]

To revisit your question, you want to know if we need three parachute companies spread across the three light battalions, if we need three parachute companies grouped into one parachute battalion/regiment, or if we need a parachute brigade (three parachute battalions).  You also want to know if a special operations battalion/regiment should exist in addition to the parachute capability, or if the same unit should fill both rolls.  Does that sound about what you want to ask?

Yes.  Thanks.  That's what I was curious about.  What the advantages of having one parachute battalion/regiment would be over the having the companies dispersed as they are.  If they are better off consolidated would this leave the present light infantry battalions impoverished?  ...and is there further advantage to keeping such a unit separate from a special operations regiment.

Infanteer - Thanks for the word on regiments and the link too.  Great site.

(...still reading the thread.)

 

[Infanteer]

What the advantages of having one parachute battalion/regiment would be over the having the companies dispersed as they are.

...and now you are about to learn the intricacies of Regimental politics....

 

[McG]

With the Conservatives planning on dropping "rapid reaction battalions" all around the country, maybe they could lump them together into a light brigade?

 

[Adam_18]

I'm not sure if this has been addressed yet, but it was my understanding that the old ariborne regiment had attatched units of airborne gunners and engineers. I'm just wondering if the new regiment will have somthing similar to this structure?

Adam

 

[Michael OLeary]

I'm not sure if this has been addressed yet, but it was my understanding that the old ariborne regiment had attatched units of airborne gunners and engineers. I'm just wondering if the new regiment will have somthing similar to this structure?

Adam

Since it's nothing but a fading election promise at this time, that's a little hard to say. Why don't we wait and see what the new goverment actually does with defence policy and then we can all ask question as real information is disclosed.

 

[Slim]

Secret breed of soldiers

New Canadian commando unit, ready for action by year's end, will help in hunt for Taliban, al-Qaida

By STEPHANIE RUBEC, SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER

OTTAWA -- A new secret commando unit will begin operating out of CFB Petawawa by year's end and see its ranks swell to 750 strong, according to the force's new commander.

Col. David Barr said the first soldiers vying for a coveted spot on the special regiment will first have to complete a grueling 16-week elite training session beginning this April in Petawawa.

Barr said he expects about 260 soldiers of that first group will meet the "high standard" set during the course and will then participate in some fall training before being deemed ready to conduct operations abroad.

"It will better enable us to counter, fight and defeat the terrorist threat at home and abroad," Barr told reporters yesterday after he was sworn in as the first commander of the Canadian special operations forces command.

Barr said the first pool of soldiers will mostly be plucked from existing units located at CFB Petawawa.

The regiment is being created to complement the secretive Joint Task Force, whose commandos are now hunting down Taliban and al-Qaida forces in Afghanistan.

"It allows us to have JTF 2 do the real precision work, but be supported by special operators that they work with, they train with, that they have confidence in," Barr explained.

The regiment will also be deploying clusters of its members to conduct secret missions abroad without JTF 2 members.

JTF 2 is itself in the midst of a massive recruiting effort as the military moves to double the unit's numbers in an effort to increase its phalanx of assaulters and support staff.

Barr said the creation of a special operations regiment has the Canadian Forces following in the footsteps of other countries' military forces, which discovered in recent years a need for a multi-tasking specialized unit that can provide muscle in missions abroad, support special forces soldiers and deploy in small units of about 12 soldiers to tackle tough jobs abroad

 

[William Webb Ellis]

I was reading the Brit Para jump thread, and it made me wonder if the airborne capability is still useful?

Please be clear this is not an attack on the airborne or it's brotherhood.  It is me wondering if the situation(s) that developed/fostered this tactic of dropping troops into battle is still relevent when you look at the other abilities to to deliver troops to battle.

 

[MikeL]

Um, theres been quite a few Airborne drops in the past while, AFAIK all were successfull. Rangers parachuting in to seize Kandahar airfield, members of the 173rd jumping into Northan Iraq, etc, plus the jumps that happened in the '80s(Urgent Fury an Just Cause).

 

[HDE]

Check out a book called "Bast*ard Sons", by Bernd Horn.  He traces the history of Canadian Airbone units and the reasons/lack of reasons for the unit over the years.  The main point is that there was a lot of ambiguity over what exactly the Airborne was expected to do, at various times, over the years.  An interesting read.

 

[Jungle]

It's not because Canada chooses not to use it that it is redundant; check out this link, especially the recent ops towards the end of the page, and make an informed opinion:
http://www.geocities.com/paratroop2000/paratrooper.htm

 

[William Webb Ellis]

It's not because Canada chooses not to use it that it is redundant; check out this link, especially the recent ops towards the end of the page, and make an informed opinion:
http://www.geocities.com/paratroop2000/paratrooper.htm

Thanks I will..

 

[geo]

while the CAR is gone, the individual "commandos" survive (+/-) as part of the light battalions. With the addition of JTF2 and the planned addition of the CSOR, think we've got this one covered thank you.

 

[Centurian1985]

A very sensitive subject for a lot of people - lets avoid past hostorical events and deal with the future:

1) It is unlkely that Canada will require an entire battalion of jump-trained soldiers.  Why? Because it is highly unlikely that we will ever conduct aggressive attacks that require an element of surprise by attacking into a rear area and then waiting for armoured link-up.  Why? For several reasons; no particular enemy to conduct such tactics on, no armour, no operations that require that tactic, not enough troops to conduct such a tactic, and not enough aircraft for such troops to jump out of.

2) However, it is of the utmost importance that soldiers have a higher level of achievement to aspire to.  The US has a multitude of such forces i.e. green berets, rangers, marine recon, seals, delta, etc. all in a set hierarchy of achievement. We need a similiar system in order to allow soldiers to demonstrate their motivation and self-determination, to distinguish themselves from others on the same level. In this regard, it is very important for us to have a 'next level' that soldiers can achieve through intense pyhsical effort and determination. Such soldiers are then allowed to demonstrate their unqiueness by wearing different clothing, berets, and recognition than the 'other' levels wear.

3) However, again, such soldiers, having proven themselves to be a superior level than those beneath them, by successfully meeting the demanded standard, although grappling for the title of 'elite', then must realize that they ARE NOT the top of the food chain.  They are merely a selection phase that weeds out those with lesser physical standards and determination. It is from this INTERMEDIATE achievement of jump-qualification that many of the next level of elite forces are selected; SAR, CSAR, JTF, SSF, Strat Recce, to name a few.  To reach this next higher level, soldiers must continue to demonstrate physical expertise but must also demonstrate mental capabilities which seperate them from those with merely physical expertise.

4) On a point sure to enrage airborne-proponents, a jump course is a qualification on par with other specialized skills that seperate soldiers from others who passed 'basic' training.  This includes mountain warfare, air assault, diving, hand-to-hand combat, markmanship, specialized intelligence teams, and other groups with unqiue skills related to combat zones and tactics but not involving a parachute.  All are equally unique, and all require a higher standard than the normal soldier.  Some require more physical skill while others demand higher mental skill, but all require the demonstration of a higher level of skill, and none can do the job of the others to the same standard (despite many claiming that they can or do).  Elite forces select from these groups in addition to the jump-trained solderis, a fact that many jump-trained soldiers tend to forget.

In Summary:
I do not believe that there is an operational requirement for an entire airborne unit, due to the lack of CF operations and tactics that would utilize such expertise.  However, I do believe that it would be a travesty to eliminate the opportunity for soldiers to gain this skill, or the recognition that soldiers gain by achieving this skill.  Soldiers need a level of achievement to attain, a mountain to climb, a means to show themselves better than their fellow soldier.  It is also an excellent means of proving that a soldier has the drive and determination that is sought by elite units higher up in the chain. Further, if Canada were to ever actually go to actual war and need this skill it would be a travesty to have eliminated the tactial and operational capability by having no one who knew how to jump out of an airplane, or to train others to do same.  Finally, until someone invents an anti-gravity belt, transporter, or some other means of moving soldiers from an air platform to the ground, this will remain a required skill area and thus must train our soldiers for its potential use; do not eliminate a strategic weapon for the projection of power unless you have something to replace it with!   

Thus endeth the lesson...

 

[3rd Horseman]

Airborne is not just redundant it is obsolete. It is a poor way to send troops into battle, we have developed better methods to achieve the same goals. That comment in no way casts any doubt on the previous glory of those fine units that conducted airborne activities in the past just that it is now the past. Notwithstanding the use of small unit airborne insertion is still a modern requirement for special ops activities but not full blown assaults.

 

[Jungle]

4) On a point sure to enrage airborne-proponents, a jump course is a qualification on par with other specialized skills that seperate soldiers from others who passed 'basic' training.  This includes mountain warfare, air assault, diving, hand-to-hand combat, markmanship, specialized intelligence teams, and other groups with unqiue skills related to combat zones and tactics but not involving a parachute.  All are equally unique, and all require a higher standard than the normal soldier.  Some require more physical skill while others demand higher mental skill, but all require the demonstration of a higher level of skill, and none can do the job of the others to the same standard (despite many claiming that they can or do).  Elite forces select from these groups in addition to the jump-trained solderis, a fact that many jump-trained soldiers tend to forget.

Maybe you are right;  : but why is it none of those specialties, apart from the Divers, get specific skill badges and task-specific allowances ?? I don't believe debussing from a LAV-III has anything in common with jumping with full combat gear, at night, from 800ft AGL, into a place you've never been before... Again, look at the link I posted in my previous post in this thread, and tell me there is no use for Airborne Troops in modern warfare.
Canada chose not to use aerial delivery (of troops or supplies) during the "Peacekeeping era", but things are changing fast...

 

[Centurian1985]

I would gladly like to hear any ideas on how to use Airborne troops in our current operations.  Also, note that I said there may still be a future use for Airborne!

Reference your remarks about special badges: to be recognized you have to have a history and a group of leaders fighting for you to be recognized as a unique skill and have leaders willling to fight for your recognition of having that skill; airborne has had that since WW II.  The rest of the specialists are just catching up. 

Reference your remarks about extra pay; the purpose of the extra pay was to entice young soldiers to risk their health to jump our of aircraft; I agree that the airborne is one of the most physically dangerous jobs in the forces and you earn your pay by having the balls to trurn yourself into a potential lawn dart.

Reference the level of danger you have implied: yeah its dangerous to jump out of an airplane at night in full combat gear; its also dangerous to dive into a shipwreck; or to hang off the side of a mountain;  or rope out of a helicopter during a heli-assault; or to sit in a forward sniper team ready to take out a guy with only a two-man backup; or to walk around in enemy areas with only one other person as backup and talk to people who would love to drag you off and put a hole in you and then you in a hole; or drive through hostile areas where the locals are throwing rocks and getting ready to attack you so all you can do is smile and wave because your not allowed to shoot anyone; or to have RPGs blow up your base house because soembody asked the wrong question at an interview...

You think you're the only one who leads a dangerous life? Get over yourself!
Be glad you got the extra bucks and the badge and the beret because the rest of us only get regular pay and the satisfaction of a' job well done'.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Failed your jump course, huh? ^-^

   or to sit in a forward sniper team ready to take out a guy with only a two-man backup; or to walk around in enemy areas with only one other person as backup and talk to people who would love to drag you off and put a hole in you and then you in a hole; or drive through hostile areas where the locals are throwing rocks and getting ready to attack you so all you can do is smile and wave because your not allowed to shoot anyone; or to have RPGs blow up your base house because soembody asked the wrong question at an interview...

You think you're the only one who leads a dangerous life? Get over yourself!
Be glad you got the extra bucks and the badge and the beret because the rest of us only get regular pay and the satisfaction of a' job well done'.

...and when you were doing[ cough,cough] all this, you only got "regular pay"?.........boy were you dumb!!