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Future Canadian Airborne Capability and Organisation! Or, is it Redundant? (a merged thread)

I agree with McG. By concentrating the airmobile capabilities within a single unit at a single location, the costs are reduced to maintain the same number of effective Paratroops/airmobile troops. I would like to see it based on an infantry battalion as opposed to the Airborne Regiment (with companies not comandos).

I also agree that the CMBG‘s should be three mechanized infantry battalions; not two mechanized and one light. If nothing else, the vehicles must be available to transform the light battalion to mechanized without pillaging vehicles from other units.

I do not think reserve units should have parachute taskings.

:cool: Yard Ape
 
These are just some of my opinions:

-Maybe JTF2 has airborne capabilities
-What if there is a disaster up north, how will Canada deploy troops

and Michael Oleary,
Everybody is entitelled to their own opinion. Its a free country!
 
The JTF 2 can be airmobile, but its role is vastly differtent from an Infantry Bn. It does not train, nor does it have the equipment to do the job of the Infantry in the field. If we want that capability for the CF, we must maintain it through an airmoblie Bn. We cannot limit this to Jump Coys. The Infantry don‘t fight alone, and if the all arms support is not jump capable, then the Infantry don‘t jump into the real thing.

:cool: Yard Ape
 
Let‘s not forget that, to my knowledge, Canada is the only NATO country that does not have an Airborne Rapid Reaction Force. We need this capability. Its lack is a serious deficiency. If other obviously worse-off countries than Canada are ready to deploy such a force at a moment‘s notice, then we should get with the NATO standard. Sure, Canada will never turn Trenton into Fort Bragg...but let‘s at least show them what we can do with a versatile, more compact force.
 
I personally believe that it would be a mistake to eliminate the role of operational parachutists from the CF. Those who have never worn a Maroon beret will never know what it means to the person who wears it. It‘s something that should be important to all members of the CF and should be expanded to something like it once was.

Cheers
 
As people keep pointing out, Canada is a big country. Airmobile is good, and should be kept, but airborne is needed too and can cover a massive distance with heavier equipment than airmobile with less of a support "tail". A brigade is needed rather than a few jump companies. I can see the cost factor, but company level units would be useless without having proper support to complete a mission. (Sometimes the extra signals, artillery, and recon comes in useful.)
:p
 
I would just like some opinions of facts. Whatever you can offer. I just find it strage we have the second largest country in the would and we are the only NATO country that does not have a rapid reaction force. I would just like to know if it is possible for the Regiment to "rise for the ashes." And on pg 18 of the Canadian Alliance‘s defence poliy it mentions re establishing such a force. What does everyone think?
 
Fact: Many Canadians are unaware that Canada even has an army.
Fact: Most of the Canadians who know we have our own army believe we are spending too much on it. When asked, they said overwhelmingly for the money to be sent back into Medicare instead. They also said nobody would attack us because the USA would bail us out.
Fact: People on my street were convinced it was the Americans cleaning the street after the Ice Storm--because the American news showed American soldiers in NY.
Fact: Most politicians are counting on the US Army to bail Canada out in the event of an attack on the continent.
Rumour: the PM had asked for the entire 10th Mountain Division to occupy Quebec under the UN flag should the YES side have won the last Quebec referendum.
Fact: We need the Airborne.
 
Fortuncookie5084,

I have to agree that most Canadians are totaly ignorant about the army and dependent on the US.
It‘s pretty sad actually.
 
My occasional ranting and raving about the USA aside (like my above post...), we each must realise that it is up to each of us to promote our Army (that‘s Army with a capital A...not army, and not CF) and what we do. If we create intelligent, accurate awareness at the street level, then the people around us will be compelled to reconsider the ways in which the media portray us.
 
I‘m sick of seeing people condemning parachute forces to the military dustbin. Yes, today mass Market-Garden or D-Day style jumps are not practical, then again war on that scale is not likely to occur. Also advances in parachute technology have solved many of the concerns about dropping "sitting duck" paratroops from slow aircraft: GQ Parachutes of the UK has designed a chute where the canopy opens first, THEN the lines come out. They have jumped versions of these chutes from SEVENTY FIVE FEET successfully, from an aircraft flying at 135 knots. From GO until landing the paratroop is in the air no more than eight seconds. Operationally, British Paras intend to mass-drop this technology from no more than 250 feet. Russia mass-drops troops using chutes with a drogue chute instead of a static line, and BMD2‘s from the SAME aircraft onto the same DZ, from aircraft going as fast as 250 knots and as low as 250 feet. Yes, jumping T10-style junk chutes from slow Hercs flying at 600 feet or more, with more Hercs dropping cargo onto a different DZ, won‘t win the next Airborne battle. But the technology and vision exists with in all of us who believe in the power and potential of Airborne, and in particular parachute forces.
 
I was never in the Airborne, I had only limited experience training with the Airborne. For what it‘s worth here‘s a different thought. I think we do have a need for an Airborne Battalion. I do not think it should be organized the way the last one was. Why not consider the British model? A seperate Battalion that a person could join right off the street. Not a "dumping ground" for discipline problems in existing battalions, not an "elite", just a battalion with a unique capability. As our army continues to mechanize (LAV III), I feel we do have a need for a quick reaction force of some sort. A dedicated Airborne Battalion would be extremly useful for various roles including UN deployments, UN evacuations, Sovreignty exercises (both real and political), Rapid Reaction, etc. Again, to look at the British, they needed dismounted, light troops to tackle the Falklands. A mechanized force wouldn‘t have been deployable / sustainable. Granted a single Airborne Battalion wouldn‘t be very survivable for long periods of time but it would provide a foot in the door in many cases.

What do we call our Battalion? What would be wrong with the 2nd Canadian Parachute Battalion? I have no idea how that would go over with the pencil pushers who decide on names and protocal but we sure as hell could never call it the airborne again. The 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion served with distinction and pride (as did the CAR). I feel that this would honour the past Battalion and set a standard for the new Battalion.

Those are my thoughts on the matter for what its worth. Will it ever happen? Sorry, not a chance.
 
There is always a chance. Military strength ebbs and flows, and we are about where we were in the mid-late 1950s: No distinct role, leadership not acclimatizing to present realities and future probabilities, and low (indeed at its lowest now) public support. We can‘t forget that after 1 Can Para was disbanded we were left with the jump companies. April 8, 1968 the Airborne Regiment was born, only to die in 1995 at the hands of politicians who didn‘t know any better. It could come back one day. Not any time soon, but it will be back.

Good ideas about modelling it more closely after the British Paras. The CAR was becoming more and more imitative of the 82nd Airborne---a detriment to its service to our country from what I‘ve heard.
 
Was reading the Ottawa Citizen today and came across this article..

They make some point about likely hood of large airborne drops... but come on.. get rid of the airborne? :mad:

---------------------------------
http://www.canada.com/search/site/story.asp?id=669E8ABD-BA42-46B9-921E-D9EFB14197B4

Parachute troops face extinction
Days of large-scale deployment of airborne units are over: report; Move would be a severe blow to army‘s morale

a journalist
The Ottawa Citizen
Tuesday, May 21, 2002

They may have served with distinction in war zones from D-Day to Afghanistan, but Canada‘s paratroopers are going the way of the dodo.

A report prepared for senior military officials and obtained by the Citizen recommends eliminating the army‘s parachute capability. If acted upon, the move could be a severe blow to the morale of some soldiers who view parachuting as a symbol of combat-readiness and esprit de corps.

The study, produced 17 months ago, recommended cutting the parachute companies in units based in Edmonton, Petawawa and Valcartier, Que. It also called for the closing of the Canadian Parachute Centre in Trenton. Any remaining parachuting skills would be moved to the air force and kept only for search-and-rescue missions.

Army officials say no final decision has been made on what to do with the paratroopers. But Col. Howie Marsh, an adviser to army commander Lt.-Gen. Mike Jeffery, said the days of large-scale parachute drops of airborne troops are over.

"It is likely there would be insertion of small numbers of people by parachute, but the parachute-type company or the unit drop -- I don‘t think is going to survive in the future," said Col. Marsh, who is helping develop the army‘s strategy for the future.

Although the Canadian Airborne Regiment was disbanded in 1995 by the Liberal government during the aftermath of the Somalia mission, the military has retained a parachute capability in its three light infantry battalions. Paratroopers from Canadian Forces Base Edmonton were recently involved in the missions against Taliban and al-Qaeda forces in Afghanistan, although they were transported by helicopter rather than parachuting into the area.

As well, the soldiers killed during the recent accidental bombing of Canadian troops in Afghanistan by a U.S. aircraft were paratroopers.

Brig.-Gen. Vince Kennedy said any decision on what to do with a parachute capability in the Canadian Forces will have to wait until after the government-ordered defence review is completed. That is expected to be finished by the fall.

As far as the army goes, parachuting will still be needed to insert troops onto battlefields, but whether that continues in the form of parachute companies in the light infantry battalions still has to be decided, Brig.-Gen. Kennedy said.

Last week the army announced it wants to expand the light infantry battalions in terms of numbers of soldiers, but it did not mention the parachute aspect of those units.

According to the report prepared for the Armed Forces Council, the Canadian military no longer has a requirement to drop large numbers of soldiers or equipment into war zones, and "the retention of a standing parachute capability is not essential."

The Armed Forces Council is made up of generals and is a key advisory group for the Chief of the Defence Staff Gen. Ray Henault.

Another memo from the office of the military‘s director general of strategic planning argued that there is also no need to have even the capability to quickly retrain soldiers for a parachute role. "Since we do not feel we need a combat para capability, we also do not feel we need a way to re-generate it quickly -- any more than re-generating an aircraft carrier capability," according to the memo.

It costs the Canadian Forces around $16 million a year to keep its parachute capabilities. Shutting down the parachute companies in the light infantry battalions would save $6.6 million a year.

Retired Maj. Gen. Robert Stewart, a former member of the Canadian Airborne Regiment, said it would be a mistake to get rid of the paratroopers. "The savings are so minimal," he said. "It‘s peanuts compared to everything else you would get from it."

Although he acknowledged it is highly unlikely Canada would conduct airborne operations in the future, he said such units produce soldiers that are "a bit extra special." Airborne soldiers are mentally and physically tough as well as possessing an esprit de corps and a "can do" attitude, said Mr. Stewart.

He noted that most armies in the world still maintain parachute units, likely for those very reasons. During the Falklands War and during a recent rescue mission in Sierra Leone, Britain sent paratroopers to do the job, Mr. Stewart added.

The military report acknowledged that parachuting is a "morale issue" for the army and could help in retaining and recruiting soldiers.

But retired army colonel Doug Bland said the army doesn‘t have the extra money for paratroopers. "It is important to have high-readiness forces but they don‘t have to go by parachute," said Mr. Bland, chairman of the Defence Management Studies program at Queen‘s University.

Helicopters have become the mainstay of moving units around war zones.

© Copyright 2002 The Ottawa Citizen
 
Never had the desire to willingly jump out of a perfectly good aircraft that wasn‘t on fire or about to crash -- I can however sympathize with paras in Canada.

The airborne ability is essential not only to esprit de corps, morale, and so many intangibles, but also to the tangibles such as combat effectiveness and quick reaction to trouble areas.

Although Canadians didn‘t, Americans DID insert by air at least once during the Afghanistan campaign currently underway, and with positive effects.

Our JTF2 lads will still use airborne insertion whether the regulars keep the ability or not. Since most of the early JTF2 members were former Airborne Regiment blokes, I would imagine this would be a skill they would want to keep available in the pool of potential special forces candidates.

In Britain, the SAS have an entire squadron that bears a majority of its members from the Parachute Regiment, and paras are scattered throughout the entire SAS in all four squadrons.

If helicopters are the main method of transport these days, then no problem. You can parachute out of one no problem.

Paras are a different breed, and so it should remain. My crap-hat‘s off to them.
 
The article is a 17 month old reprint with a few new things added. Things have changed. Besides, large scale airborne drops are a thing of the past. Three divided companies of paratroopers are obviously not going to do a major drop(people wise) Disregard the article.
 
I agree that conventional parachute drops are not really required of Canada, but Canada does require a dedicated airborne trained special operations capable unit that it not a true special force unit, but somewhere in between. This is not a new idea, but one that is already in effect in the many of our allies militaries. The British Army has its Paras. The US Army has its Ranger Battalions. The Royal Australian Army has its 4th battalion Royal Australian Regimet [Commando]. The three units named have many commonalities. First, they are all airborne trained. Two, they are all high readiness units. Three, they are not "true" special forces units, but hilghly trained airborne infantry units used for specific roles. To be fair to the US Army Ranger battalions, they are the most specially trained of the three units. The Rangers are not used for general peace support operations whereas 4 RAR (CDO) and the Paras are.

These aiborne infantry units are useful in a mcuh wider variety of roles than true dedicated special forces units and are far less expensive. Quite often airborne units provide heavy support to special forces units, becuase they often train together and have similiar, but not identical, mission mandates. For example, the US Army Rangers provided support to the US Army Delta Force during the failed peace support operation in Somalia. The British Paras provided heavy support to the British SAS in Sierra Leone in the fall of 2000 to rescue British Army hostages; no rescue would have occurred without Para support or a higher death toll would have resulted.

Needless, to say conventional airborne infantry units may indeed be a thing of the past, but limited special operations capabale airborne infantry battalions will continue to be required in the short and long term. Therefore, I believe that some form of semi-specialized airborne commando unit--not unlike the CAR--is required to complement the JTF 2, but not replace it. I would suggest that any new CAR-like regiment have a much more focused mandate and have a defined selection process that will better weed out any "rambo-types" that attempt to get in so that disciplinary problems do not become a problem again.
 
You know what? I think that the officer who wrote this article is not a paratrooper and therefore is quick to decide on what the capabilities of a paratrooper are.
Whether it be a large scale drop, or a small unit behind enemy lines a Little Group of Paratroopers, WILL cause stress and havoc behind enemy lines. Highly motivated, keen, trained hard and the williness to fight makes paratroopers an awsome asset to have and employ.
I‘ve worked within units who are not paratroopers and let me tell you the initiative to get things done and the ability to fight hard is not there. Only in a para unit will you find a tough spirit that is hard to break.
If anyone thought about getting rid of the AIRBORNE well did they think how much moral WILL suffer? Good soldiers want to be challanged, a Para unit is made up of volunteers. If you take the Paras away how challanging will it be to maintain vehicles all day in a mechnized unit. Trying to get recruits is hard enough for the CF. Keeping guys in is even harder. So if the powers that be say shut down the Airborne, well they are going to loose a lot of good soldiers real fast. :mg:
 
I fully agree with paramoe and I dare somone to argue for getting rid of the para coys! :mad:
 
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