Freedom Convoy protests [Split from All things 2019-nCoV]

[Winds]

Regarding that "gravy train" running one-way from Queen's Park to City Hall.

Another member, in another thread, explained it this way,



Main Conclusions

• Greater Toronto Area (GTA) taxpayers pay out almost $24 billion more in taxes than they receive in government spending—a net tax burden equal to 11 percent of the GTA economy

• Most of this burden falls on the suburbs around Toronto, where the average household pays the equivalent of more than $17,000 in extra taxes

• Halton Region and York Region households—urban areas just west and north of Toronto—pay the most: up to $26,000 more in tax than in government services received. By comparison, Toronto households pay almost $9,500 in extra taxes.

• A minority of 9 Ontario counties are subsidizing the other 40. Twenty-one counties pay less tax than they receive in government services, with most found in the eastern and northern regions. Five counties effectively have most or all of their personal income taxes refunded in the form of an equivalent dollar value of services.

• The average Ontario household bears a net tax burden of over $4,500 to pay for transfers to other provinces through federal government taxation and spending programs

• The degree of regional net tax burden and its associated subsidy outflow rises with income—richer communities are generally subsidizing poorer communities

• Subsidy outflows also rise with population density, contrary to anti-development advocates’ beliefs, showing that suburbia is paying more than its proportional share of government costs

Your figures originate from a report by the Fraser Institute (a libertarian think-tank) and include all forms of taxation (municipal, provincial, federal, CPP, etc.). The money is not just being transferred to other regions of Ontario but to other, "have not" provinces. Much of it is also probably paying for federal expenditures (ex. defence) as well as provinical infrastricture... those cities aren't getting fed without roads/rail, especially when it comes to imported goods.

The main reason is because incomes are significantly higher than most other regions in the country, and we have a graduated system of taxation. Are you arguing that all households should pay a flat amount of tax, regardless of income? Or that we should stop transfer payments and allow the "have not" regions of the country survive off their own ability to generate tax revenue?

 

[lenaitch]

Go ahead and try to feed yourselves within the boundaries of your cities. Good luck.

. . . and generate your own energy,
. . . and dispose of your solid waste,
. . . and manufacture the consumer goods you consume,
. . .

 

[lenaitch]

I’m not so sure. Communities just outside certain urban centers sure, but my comment is more aimed at those areas that are far more rural.

Take Ottawa. Embrun, Carleton Place, Arnprior etc are all growing and by a lot. But those have always been bedroom communities of the NCR.

But how about communities that are further out or economically depressed? Cornwall is an hour away but could use the injection of gainfully employed people. Or the rural areas around Cornwall? Or someone in North Bay? Or Iroquois falls?

Plenty of examples where that urban real estate shit is not a problem but are bleeding people and money.

The problems facing a lot of the smaller urban areas than don't have the geographic advantage of turning themselves into a bedroom/commuter community is the hollowing out of our manufacturing base and significant changes in our resource industries. Most of these communities relied one or a small number of 'anchor industries' to support their economy; which was fine, until it wasn't. Cornwall had a Domtar pulp mill. Some towns were more varied but they were still manufacturing-based, which has been devastated. Some who had their 'come-to-Jesus' moment of their main employers collapsing have tried to diversify, with varying degrees of success.

In the non-renewable resource-based towns of the north, boom-and-bust is simply a fact of life. There's not much you can do about that aspect - the minerals are where they are - but at least now you no longer seeing permanent towns pop-up. Better transportation and government policies now allows workers to travel in on extended shift cycles and stay in temporary camps.

 

[brihard]

May be worth a thread split?

 

[QV]

CCLA Reaction to Public Order Emergency Commission - CCLA

ccla.org

Never thought I'd ever be cheering for a case initiated by a civil liberties organization.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

CCLA Reaction to Public Order Emergency Commission - CCLA

ccla.org

Never thought I'd ever be cheering for a case initiated by a civil liberties organization.

I don’t agree with every case they take, but I respect the work that they do.

 

[Halifax Tar]

My understanding is Rouleau has stated that one can reasonably disagree and find fault with his decision.

 

[Spencer100]

My understanding is Rouleau has stated that one can reasonably disagree and find fault with his decision.

But he's good comfy fur is inbound. Which in the end was the whole point.

 

[brihard]

I don’t agree with every case they take, but I respect the work that they do.

This will be legally neat to see. A POEC was a first; so too will be a judicial review of it. One or more of our resident lawyers will have more insight than I on this, but I’ll be curious to see what the standard of review is. I suspect the court will hold itself to a similar standard as they would reviewing a tribunal, and will simply seek to determine whether, on the evidence before the POEC, the commissioner could reasonably have reached the conclusion that he did.

There’s no direct precedent for this, so it’ll be breaking new ground no matter how it goes.

 

[OldSolduer]

I don’t agree with every case they take, but I respect the work that they do.

Agreed. The work they do may actually have a bearing on how our liberties can or cannot be curtailed by governments.

 

[Halifax Tar]

But he's good comfy fur is inbound. Which in the end was the whole point.

I have no idea what you just said.

 

[lenaitch]

This will be legally neat to see. A POEC was a first; so too will be a judicial review of it. One or more of our resident lawyers will have more insight than I on this, but I’ll be curious to see what the standard of review is. I suspect the court will hold itself to a similar standard as they would reviewing a tribunal, and will simply seek to determine whether, on the evidence before the POEC, the commissioner could reasonably have reached the conclusion that he did.

There’s no direct precedent for this, so it’ll be breaking new ground no matter how it goes.

Or simply refuse to hear the application. The Commission's recommendations are just that, and the government is free to accept and implement any, some or none of them. In many ways, it is little different that a parliamentary committee.

 

[brihard]

Or simply refuse to hear the application. The Commission's recommendations are just that, and the government is free to accept and implement any, some or none of them. In many ways, it is little different that a parliamentary committee.

True- as there’s nothing binding out of this, Court may simply shrug and say there’s nothing to review

 

[FSTO]

Latest from Matt Gurney on how a group of ordinary folk with a little bit of logistic organizational skill pretty much brought the mechanism of municipal, provincial and federal governments to their knees.

Matt Gurney: How the convoy almost beat the Canadian government

All it took to knock us flat on our ass for three weeks was a few thousand people whose jobs gave them a reasonable knack for organization and logistics.

theline.substack.com

The sum up:

And I can’t stress this enough: the convoy wasn’t unusually well led, or coordinated by logistics prodigies. It was just a pretty normal group of people who are, presumably, pretty much average in their workplace performance. If your job requires you to manage a bunch of projects at the same time and coordinate different teams, especially if you mix in a bit of expertise in event planning and fleet operations, you are apparently probably capable of overthrowing the Canadian state. Semi-pro band roadies could likely install themselves as Supreme Ruler inside a month.

Ordinary working folks with some bonkers political opinions. That’s all it took to overwhelm us. A reasonably organized group of a few thousand people collapsed a municipal police force, drove a provincial premier into hiding and left the federal government stumbling around for weeks, checking their phones and wondering if they were allowed to talk to the RCMP or nah.

Huh. Right?

 

[RangerRay]

This.

For some time, governments in this country seem to have lost the ability to deal with moderate to major disasters, other than the ability shovel money out the door. The convoy just laid bare how low we have gotten where a national emergency had to be declared because of incompetence/inaction/petty politics of several levels of government, intelligence and law enforcement.

Other than investing in the right kinds of people, training and systems, I don’t know how we can fix stupid.

 

[Good2Golf]

Latest from Matt Gurney on how a group of ordinary folk with a little bit of logistic organizational skill pretty much brought the mechanism of municipal, provincial and federal governments to their knees.

Matt Gurney: How the convoy almost beat the Canadian government

All it took to knock us flat on our ass for three weeks was a few thousand people whose jobs gave them a reasonable knack for organization and logistics.

theline.substack.com

The sum up:

And I can’t stress this enough: the convoy wasn’t unusually well led, or coordinated by logistics prodigies. It was just a pretty normal group of people who are, presumably, pretty much average in their workplace performance. If your job requires you to manage a bunch of projects at the same time and coordinate different teams, especially if you mix in a bit of expertise in event planning and fleet operations, you are apparently probably capable of overthrowing the Canadian state. Semi-pro band roadies could likely install themselves as Supreme Ruler inside a month.

Ordinary working folks with some bonkers political opinions. That’s all it took to overwhelm us. A reasonably organized group of a few thousand people collapsed a municipal police force, drove a provincial premier into hiding and left the federal government stumbling around for weeks, checking their phones and wondering if they were allowed to talk to the RCMP or nah.

Huh. Right?

It’s almost unbelievable…unless some wanted it to unfold that way…

 

[OldSolduer]

This.

For some time, governments in this country seem to have lost the ability to deal with moderate to major disasters, other than the ability shovel money out the door. The convoy just laid bare how low we have gotten where a national emergency had to be declared because of incompetence/inaction/petty politics of several levels of government, intelligence and law enforcement.

Other than investing in the right kinds of people, training and systems, I don’t know how we can fix stupid.

Quota based recruiting, not hurting "feelings", molly coddling those that break the law.....

 

[daftandbarmy]

They probably left out "never depend on some local police forces or city councils to do their jobs"

Internal documents show what RCMP considered ‘lessons learned’ from ‘Freedom Convoy’​

After policing the “Freedom Convoy,” the RCMP came away with lessons learned, newly released documents show — including the need to better prepare for the potential targeting of emergency phone lines.

Briefing notes obtained by The Canadian Press under access-to-information laws also point to security pressures to protect leaders in Ottawa and detail the challenges that arose from the fact the protests had no clear leadership.

The force compiled the documents before six top RCMP officials, including Commissioner Brenda Lucki, were interviewed by lawyers with the Public Order Emergency Commission last September.

In early 2022, Lucki was among the officials Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and members of his cabinet looked to as they grappled with how to respond to protests staged near Parliament Hill in Ottawa and at several U.S. border crossings.

To clear the protesters, who were demonstrating against Trudeau’s government and COVID-19 public health measures, Ottawa ultimately invoked the federal Emergencies Act — a move that Justice Paul Rouleau ruled was justified in a final report released a month ago.

Internal documents show what RCMP considered ‘lessons learned’ from ‘Freedom Convoy’

After policing the “Freedom Convoy,” the RCMP came away with lessons learned, newly released documents show — including the need to better prepare for the potential targeting of emergency phone lines.

www.thestar.com

 

[BrianWL]

They probably left out "never depend on some local police forces or city councils to do their jobs"

Internal documents show what RCMP considered ‘lessons learned’ from ‘Freedom Convoy’​

After policing the “Freedom Convoy,” the RCMP came away with lessons learned, newly released documents show — including the need to better prepare for the potential targeting of emergency phone lines.

Briefing notes obtained by The Canadian Press under access-to-information laws also point to security pressures to protect leaders in Ottawa and detail the challenges that arose from the fact the protests had no clear leadership.

The force compiled the documents before six top RCMP officials, including Commissioner Brenda Lucki, were interviewed by lawyers with the Public Order Emergency Commission last September.

In early 2022, Lucki was among the officials Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and members of his cabinet looked to as they grappled with how to respond to protests staged near Parliament Hill in Ottawa and at several U.S. border crossings.

To clear the protesters, who were demonstrating against Trudeau’s government and COVID-19 public health measures, Ottawa ultimately invoked the federal Emergencies Act — a move that Justice Paul Rouleau ruled was justified in a final report released a month ago.

Internal documents show what RCMP considered ‘lessons learned’ from ‘Freedom Convoy’

After policing the “Freedom Convoy,” the RCMP came away with lessons learned, newly released documents show — including the need to better prepare for the potential targeting of emergency phone lines.

www.thestar.com

the first problem with handling this was the Ottawa chief, who hoped it would just go away. instead, it was he who went away

 

[mariomike]

Update

March 14, 2023

'Freedom Convoy' lawsuit expands to include more Ottawa residents, new defendants

A proposed class-action lawsuit over the 'Freedom Convoy' has expanded to include more potential downtown Ottawa plaintiffs and added more defendants.

ottawa.ctvnews.ca