Freedom Convoy protests [Split from All things 2019-nCoV]

[rmc_wannabe]

So Ottawa feels abandoned by Ont ?

Welcome to Canada outside Ont - Que. GTA/Montreal

FTFY.

There is a nice long stretch from about Cobourg to Cornwall that has been told to drop dead by both the Feds and Provincial government. Why? Not as vote rich as the GTA. I am positive it's the same for the Eastern Townships and Northern ON/QC folks too.

We have an axe to grind just as much as the rest of Canada with Ottawa, Toronto, and Montreal.

 

[TacticalTea]

Tangibly, what does that look like to you? What concretely provincial affairs would see a lessened importance from Ottawa?

Not sure if you're just being rhetorical or genuinely curious, so I'll only start with this for now:

The only limit is your creativity and the balance of interests. The constitution is not eternal. We can do whatever we (collectively) want.

 

[GK .Dundas]

I said this before but given all the effort and trouble that Ontario went to in acquire what is now Northern Ontario.
Up to and including a court case that went all the way to the House of Lords.
For originally it was all so claimed by Manitoba.
One would think they'd at least treat it a little better.

 

[brihard]

Not sure if you're just being rhetorical or genuinely curious, so I'll only start with this for now:

The only limit is your creativity and the balance of interests. The constitution is not eternal. We can do whatever we (collectively) want.

No, I’m being genuinely curious. ‘My creativity’ is far from the only limit, and dismissing the constitution as ‘not eternal’ does not serve to negate sections 91 and 92 that divide federal and provincial powers. I took your comment to mean that you believe the feds are operating ultra vires their constitutional authorities; I’m curious to know if you have specific examples of that that have not been addressed by the courts?

 

[mariomike]

There is a nice long stretch from about Cobourg to Cornwall that has been told to drop dead by both the Feds and Provincial government. Why? Not as vote rich as the GTA. I am positive it's the same for the Eastern Townships and Northern ON/QC folks too.

We have an axe to grind just as much as the rest of Canada with Ottawa, Toronto, and Montreal.

Maybe some people think Queen's Park runs a "gravy train" to City Hall.

But, I doubt that is the case.

The department I worked for only received fifty percent of its funding from Queen's Park. Same as Cobourg or Cornwall.

And, that was based only on the census population.

Because there are large numbers of people in the city from out of town / province / country, the service is much busier than the Province of Ontario funded.

 

[dapaterson]

Canada's population is essentially 20% Quebec, 40% Ontario, and 40% everything else.

 

[RangerRay]

Canada's population is essentially 20% Quebec, 40% Ontario, and 40% everything else.

A Finn once argued with me that 50% of Canadians were Francophone and/or Quebecois. She would not believe me that it was more like 20% and she thought I was nuts.

 

[daftandbarmy]

A Finn once argued with me that 50% of Canadians were Francophone and/or Quebecois. She would not believe me that it was more like 20% and she thought I was nuts.

Coincidentally, the Norwegians and Swedes make fun of the Finns because they're linguistic 'orphans' in Scandinavia. The next closest language is Hungarian.

Lots of knee slapping jokes about that one, like:

"The Mongol hordes were invading Europe across the eastern steppe and came across two signs. One pointed north and said 'Finland'. The other pointed south and said 'Hungary'.

The ones who could read went to Hungary."

 

[lenaitch]

I said this before but given all the effort and trouble that Ontario went to in acquire what is now Northern Ontario.
Up to and including a court case that went all the way to the House of Lords.
For originally it was all so claimed by Manitoba.
One would think they'd at least treat it a little better.

Fair conclusion but, to be accurate, that dispute only involved northwestern Ontario west of current-day Thunder Bay. There's a whole lot of Northern Ontario east of that (which they largely ignore as well).

 

[TacticalTea]

‘My creativity’ is far from the only limit

I meant it generally. Not yours particularly. And I never said it was ''the only limit''. I was in fact pretty deliberate and concise in my choice of words, so I am rather perplexed here.

, and dismissing the constitution as ‘not eternal’ does not serve to negate sections 91 and 92 that divide federal and provincial powers.

It does actually. Those sections could be entirely abrogated by constitutional amendment. I'm not suggesting this, but just pointing out that your statement is not correct. Section 41 delineates the areas that might be more problematic due to the requirement of unanimity, and in practical terms that is mostly just anything to do with the Monarch, GG, and LGs.

I took your comment to mean that you believe the feds are operating ultra vires their constitutional authorities;

I did not mean to be so legalistic. There is the letter of the law, and then the spirit of the law. And on top of that, whatever new modern framework we'd like to build.

I’m curious to know if you have specific examples of that that have not been addressed by the courts?

I'm not a fan of governance from the bench, so I won't go down that road.

---

Nonetheless, here goes nuffin'. A more federalist rather than ''republican'' (centralizing) approach would serve us well in my view.

I believe the federal government should have nothing to do with education and healthcare, the primary responsibilities of provincial governments. Simplify the Canada health transfer (predatory federalism as one put it). Cut the negotiations. Reduce it in exchange for tax points. If the provinces then fail to provide appropriate healthcare, that's on them.
Federal grants that mandate re-structuration of universities, such that have given rise to racist and sexist policies? In the bin. None of that federal micromanagement.

Feds can throw money - equitably amongst provinces - all they want. I don't accept the notion that any of it should be conditional in matters of provincial competence (or strictly provincial interest). Canadians need to stop looking up to the federal government to solve every problem. To borrow some from Pericles; if you neglect provincial politics, then provincial politics will neglect you and that's on you.

But that's not all ''weakening the federal'' means. You can also leverage mechanical/structural reform.
A number of Senators have indicated support for provincial nomination of Senators. Greater provincial influence in federal administration can be generated in a number of ways. The EU is an interesting model. We should probably find some way to reduce the PMO's power too. That probably involves some reform of how MPs and Party Leaders are elected.

It's up to me? Even the Criminal Code should be split into federal and provincial. No particular reason for the federal government to be involved in issues as local as petty thievery. Immigration is not a particularly federal issue either other than the granting of citizenship, and Lord knows that doesn't mean much anyway to the multicultural, post-national GoC.

At the end of the day, those are just some of the ideas running around in my head. I'm certain a group of dedicated and knowledgeable individuals could do better. So I will reiterate that the only limits are creativity and the balance of interests (the latter of which gets you the 7/50... 7 provinces, 50% of the population).

What I'd like to see, truly, is a federal government that focuses on matters of federal importance, like foreign affairs, national defence, monetary policy, intelligence, emergency management, interstate (oops) commerce. In essence, those reasons for which Confederation occurred in the first place. I'm done with federal politics being a popularity contest of bizarro Who wants to be a millionaire?.

Reminder: this was sparked by the question of whether Atlantic (or Western?) amalgamation should occur. EU member states derive much of their legitimacy among peers from their status as nation-states. Provinces don't. A more level playing field facilitates a healthier conversational negotiation between empowered provinces and economies of scale grant them the means to manage themselves. That's not to say provinces should be the be-all-end-all: devolution carries on from provinces down to regions and municipalities.

 

[mariomike]

Regarding that "gravy train" running one-way from Queen's Park to City Hall.

Another member, in another thread, explained it this way,

But in your separation of major population centres from the "good folk living on the land" (apologies for the sarcasm) will the rural (smaller centres) population still want the city folk to kick in the share of provincial revenue that was previously to their benefit?

This is from a 2004 Fraser Institute study. (Sorry, was unable to quickly find a more current study, however, I expect that the underlying conclusions are probably still valid.)

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/SharetheWealth.pdf

Main Conclusions

• Greater Toronto Area (GTA) taxpayers pay out almost $24 billion more in taxes than they receive in government spending—a net tax burden equal to 11 percent of the GTA economy

• Most of this burden falls on the suburbs around Toronto, where the average household pays the equivalent of more than $17,000 in extra taxes

• Halton Region and York Region households—urban areas just west and north of Toronto—pay the most: up to $26,000 more in tax than in government services received. By comparison, Toronto households pay almost $9,500 in extra taxes.

• A minority of 9 Ontario counties are subsidizing the other 40. Twenty-one counties pay less tax than they receive in government services, with most found in the eastern and northern regions. Five counties effectively have most or all of their personal income taxes refunded in the form of an equivalent dollar value of services.

• The average Ontario household bears a net tax burden of over $4,500 to pay for transfers to other provinces through federal government taxation and spending programs

• The degree of regional net tax burden and its associated subsidy outflow rises with income—richer communities are generally subsidizing poorer communities

• Subsidy outflows also rise with population density, contrary to anti-development advocates’ beliefs, showing that suburbia is paying more than its proportional share of government costs

 

[Furniture]

Regarding that "gravy train" running one-way from Queen's Park to City Hall.

Another member, in another thread, explained it this way,



Main Conclusions

• Greater Toronto Area (GTA) taxpayers pay out almost $24 billion more in taxes than they receive in government spending—a net tax burden equal to 11 percent of the GTA economy

• Most of this burden falls on the suburbs around Toronto, where the average household pays the equivalent of more than $17,000 in extra taxes

• Halton Region and York Region households—urban areas just west and north of Toronto—pay the most: up to $26,000 more in tax than in government services received. By comparison, Toronto households pay almost $9,500 in extra taxes.

• A minority of 9 Ontario counties are subsidizing the other 40. Twenty-one counties pay less tax than they receive in government services, with most found in the eastern and northern regions. Five counties effectively have most or all of their personal income taxes refunded in the form of an equivalent dollar value of services.

• The average Ontario household bears a net tax burden of over $4,500 to pay for transfers to other provinces through federal government taxation and spending programs

• The degree of regional net tax burden and its associated subsidy outflow rises with income—richer communities are generally subsidizing poorer communities

• Subsidy outflows also rise with population density, contrary to anti-development advocates’ beliefs, showing that suburbia is paying more than its proportional share of government costs

Cities paying more to support rural areas is the entire reason cities can exist... You can't dump millions of people into a few thousand square kms and not get outside food/resources.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Cities paying more to support rural areas is the entire reason cities can exist... You can't dump millions of people into a few thousand square kms and not get outside food/resources.

That assumes our farm land is producing the goods needed to sustain the population.

Next time you're in your grocery store, look at where you're fruits and veg come from. I bet you find more USA and Mexico than you do local.

 

[Rifleman62]

Most provinces view Ottawa as little more than an ATM.....

And why not? The Provinces' taxpayers put the money in Ottawa's ATM. It's their money. Ottawa just mismanages the money, loses it and in Trudeau's case, blows it.

 

[Furniture]

That assumes our farm land is producing the goods needed to sustain the population.

Next time you're in your grocery store, look at where you're fruits and veg come from. I bet you find more USA and Mexico than you do local.

That's less about capability to feed the city, and more about people wanting fresh vegetables that are out of season. Most of the vegetables I buy come from Ontario, and have the "Foodland Ontario" label on the package.

 

[Brad Sallows]

If the farm land isn't enough to provide all of the food, it doesn't mean the farm land isn't still necessary for the "some of the food" it provides.

Besides, there are other things: generated electrical power, fossil fuels, building materials, waste disposal.

Anyone who wants to have a go at creating a modern city that draws everything it needs from sources other than rural Canada, should live his beliefs (and die by them, as will be likely). The cities not on coastlines will find out pretty quickly for whose benefit the roads and railways really exist.

Anyone who wants to have a go at creating a modern city that is a true autarky, will simply die much more quickly.

 

[ArmyRick]

That assumes our farm land is producing the goods needed to sustain the population.

Next time you're in your grocery store, look at where you're fruits and veg come from. I bet you find more USA and Mexico than you do local.

The majority of the food (which I barely call food) in our groceries stores is from Canada. Your looking at fresh produce (we have a terrible produce growing season it is very short)
Now you look at Cereal grains (wheat, barley, oats, rye, triticale), Corn, Legumes (peas, soy), pulses (canola, sunflower, safflower) and potatoes. Basically the "cash crop" products. They make up ingredients in alot of your packaged food (most of this stuff is piss poor quality). Now look at how many isles in a grocery in the grocery store are dedcated to these products.

Now, we may have a short veggie and fruit growing season, but we produce dairy, meats, eggs and fish YEAR ROUND. And excellent quality.

The truth is, we need more businesses Like Chapman's Ice Cream in Markdale. The owners had an opportunity to move their operations into the "big city" for cheaper distribution and more profit. They refused. They wanted to keep the company in its Grey county roots and keep the money up here in our area and provide many full time job opportunities. WHich is desperately needed in rural Ontario/Canada.

Any city dwelling folks complaining about a few bucks coming to the poverty stricken rural countryside, wake up. Go ahead and try to feed yourselves within the boundaries of your cities. Good luck.

 

[ArmyRick]

If the farm land isn't enough to provide all of the food, it doesn't mean the farm land isn't still necessary for the "some of the food" it provides.

Besides, there are other things: generated electrical power, fossil fuels, building materials, waste disposal.

Anyone who wants to have a go at creating a modern city that draws everything it needs from sources other than rural Canada, should live his beliefs (and die by them, as will be likely). The cities not on coastlines will find out pretty quickly for whose benefit the roads and railways really exist.

Anyone who wants to have a go at creating a modern city that is a true autarky, will simply die much more quickly.

Thank you

 

[Halifax Tar]

That's less about capability to feed the city, and more about people wanting fresh vegetables that are out of season. Most of the vegetables I buy come from Ontario, and have the "Foodland Ontario" label on the package.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if Canadians had exist only on in season vegetables and fruits and supplement with canned and frozen.

 

[Halifax Tar]

The majority of the food (which I barely call food) in our groceries stores is from Canada. Your looking at fresh produce (we have a terrible produce growing season it is very short)
Now you look at Cereal grains (wheat, barley, oats, rye, triticale), Corn, Legumes (peas, soy), pulses (canola, sunflower, safflower) and potatoes. Basically the "cash crop" products. They make up ingredients in alot of your packaged food (most of this stuff is piss poor quality). Now look at how many isles in a grocery in the grocery store are dedcated to these products.

Now, we may have a short veggie and fruit growing season, but we produce dairy, meats, eggs and fish YEAR ROUND. And excellent quality.

The truth is, we need more businesses Like Chapman's Ice Cream in Markdale. The owners had an opportunity to move their operations into the "big city" for cheaper distribution and more profit. They refused. They wanted to keep the company in its Grey county roots and keep the money up here in our area and provide many full time job opportunities. WHich is desperately needed in rural Ontario/Canada.

Any city dwelling folks complaining about a few bucks coming to the poverty stricken rural countryside, wake up. Go ahead and try to feed yourselves within the boundaries of your cities. Good luck.

I am not disparaging farmers in any way. I am on your side.