Former Soldier's Dreams Crushed by Shooting Accusations - Article

[George Wallace]

Sounds like the unit never did the paperwork properly - someone signed off that the kit was received back, but never entered it into the system of record.

So the MND had staff go into the system of record, it shows Bloggins still owes kit, and voila!

The fault lies not with the person who ran the report for the MND - it lies with the one(s) wh never enetered the data into the system.

Exact same thing happened when I got out in Pet in 2005.  Turned in my kit, and while doing so was informed I had ten rucksacks on my charge.  Apparantly when they went digital from paper, someone added a zero (typo). Luckily, the Sup Tech was kind enough to correct it at time of Kit Return.  However, that Sup Tech got deployed before they could finish entering my Returns electronically and a few month later, in Edmonton on crse, I was informed I still owed $10,000 worth of kit.  Seems to be a common problem throughout the CF, both Reg and Reserve, that administration is falling apart.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Sounds like the unit never did the paperwork properly - someone signed off that the kit was received back, but never entered it into the system of record.

So the MND had staff go into the system of record, it shows Bloggins still owes kit, and voila!

The fault lies not with the person who ran the report for the MND - it lies with the one(s) wh never enetered the data into the system.

Fair enough. I stand corrected thank you.

Now that the mistake is public knowledge the MND should follow up yes?

 

[ArmyRick]

I have seen it happen in some other regiments as well. 20 years ago, with no/minimal use of computers, it was **** simple and easy to clear someone out of the P Res if they had all their kit, ID cards and owed nothing else to the messes, army, etc.

Now it seems to be a long dragged out ordeal. I was involved with assisting PAT soldiers releasing from the Reg F only 3 years ago and that was dirt simple and easy compared to the process it takes to release from the CF. I even asked a chief clerk how it works and my head was spinning when she explained the paper trail/email trail that goes on (holy bat franks!)...

I have also seen a situation where a soldier did everything to get out and then while waiting the huge release processing time, he received a letter advising him he was NES and could potentially get 5F released. WTF! We need a better admin process for the P Res, pure and simple.

 

[FJAG]

The inaccuracy of supply records is notorious and that has a clear impact in this case.

In order to obtain a conviction a prosecutor must prove his case beyond a reasonable doubt. There have been a few items mentioned in the articles that certainly raise a doubt: The clearance card signed by someone in the unit saying $0.00 kit outstanding, numerous unit personnel stating they did not go to Trenton for kit turn in, a unit person responsible for some two years as a stores clerk dealing with these issues.

One would think that the police would have followed up with this information, interview these various people and confirm or not the story being put forward. Reserve units aren't that big. People should remember a former member with 12 years service and be able to provide either exculpatory or incriminating evidence one way or the other. If the Sun certainly was able to interview a half dozen former soldiers quite quickly.

All too often police get too busy with new cases and old ones tend to languish. As a result folks get left hanging in the wind.

The MND response has me wondering.  If there is conflicting evidence between his PLCC card and the clothing records I'd want a good explanation of why that was the case. "the unit erroneously processed his release" seems too superficial, too glib. While units do make mistakes, they generally don't sign off a PLCC unless there's a pile of kit sitting on the floor.

 

[armyvern]

... they generally don't sign off a PLCC unless there's a pile of kit sitting on the floor.

Bang on ... and next to my signature on his PLCC card clearing him out of clothing would be my little serial #'d stamp.

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

I'll weigh in a little here as there seems to be a rather large misconception that a mbr must turn in all their kit in order to be release.  This is simply put BS.  There is a section in each AJAG Region called claims for and against the crown. If a soldier doesn't turn in their kit the release process continues. If on the day of release the kit has not yet been turned in the appropriate documents are forwarded to claims for and against the crown for legal action.  The rumours of UNITS sending folks into collections are just that.

 

[Jarnhamar]

The rumours of UNITS sending folks into collections are just that.

Fair enough I didn't mean to imply units send someone to collections themselves but that instead of writing off a scarf they put down that a member still owes it and if they don't pay for it they get released and owe money to the crown.  Various units screw up paperwork all the time.


Either way I still don't think the MND office did their homework very well and they should further look into it because it obviously doesn't jive and in this case a Canadian citizen is getting screwed over by the military AND police at the same time.



edited to remove pers info

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I'm glad you KNOW he's Innocent,....but what else did I expect from you?

 

[Jarnhamar]

I'm glad you KNOW he's Innocent,....but what else did I expect from you?

Is this to me?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Yup

and in this case a Canadian citizen is getting screwed over by the military AND police at the same time.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Well I'm guessing 'what else would I expect from you' means you feel I always think I'm  right and not open to the possibility I'm wrong, yes?

Surely you're not insinuating I'm anti-police as I've gone on record here supporting them and identifying myself as 'pro-police'. 


I'm basing my opinion of him getting screwed over by the military and police off of him;

having signed paperwork saying he turned his kit in which he was discharged with no further incident
inability to track the lot numbers on the ammunition and smoke grenades with bates (as in him having say been on an exercise in which they were issued)- which is how police tracked down those dudes years ago that threw smoke grenades in the Edmonton mall
recovering from a back injury
not tying him into the rifle that was found through fingerprints or purchase

I'll admit I could be wrong and he could be guilty after all and the police just haven't felt the need to charge him yet, for some reason making it appear that they are just leaving him on the hook.

Being in law enforcement I realize you may be inclined to defend the police and in turn is what I would expect from you.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

But you'd be wrong.
He may very well be innocent, difference is I'm not prepared to hang anybody [ either side] on newspaper articles.

By the way,.....I "turned" in my jump helmet 28 years ago yet somehow it's still sitting on a shelf in my basement......just sayin'.

 

[Jarnhamar]

But you'd be wrong.
He may very well be innocent, difference is I'm not prepared to hang anybody [ either side] on newspaper articles.

Fair point, I concede.

By the way,.....I "turned" in my jump helmet 28 years ago yet somehow it's still sitting on a shelf in my basement......just sayin'.

Touche.

At least if your helmet ever gets used  in a crime and it's discovered you have an alibi 

 

[Good2Golf]

If the CF had records of him not turning in a barrack box and having to pay its replacement value before his release was finalized, there might be some argument that he had kept it and could have allegedly used the box while perpetrating or being party to the commission of the criminal activity. 

Were he to be charged and court proceedings taken against him, it would be up to the Crown to make the case beyond a reasonable doubt, that he had not returned the barrack box.  I don't see any information provided or alluded to by the CF that would make a convincing case that the barrack box could reasonably link him to the event.

The fact is that actions are being taken against him (linkage to unfounded/unproven "facts" during assessment of suitability for police service) that appear to not seem reasonable or to meet checks and balances regarding the veracity of information used during such assessments.

If there were something else there, I would think a brief but firm statement by DPS regarding Bate's application and unsuitability would end the matter.  It seems more that a number of processes are happening where no one agency wants to definitively resolve the issue, including the fact that there is a criminal investigation ongoing that has yet to resolve the issue of who actually committed the original crime.  If it was Bate, Durham Police Service should get on with laying charges and let the Crown prosecute him, if not, find out who actually fired the rifle.  In getting on with the investigation, the determination of Bate's guilt or innocence would at least be pursued....not left in limbo as it would appear to be, now.

Regards,
G2G

 

[Journeyman]

Also (again, based on news stories....which may occasionally be more stories than news), the ball may have been dropped in one or more of those organizations. Unfortunately, in today's society accidents cannot simply 'happen'; there are enough lawyers seeking money to ensure that it's in neither organization's best interest to say "hey, we screwed up; we'll ensure it never happens again -- or even, we'll move you to the front of the hiring queue for consideration."

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

...or lawyers trying to embarrass the police into giving up what they have on their client by going to the media.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

UPDATE

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2013/10/20/21208476.html
Chris Doucette, QMI Agency
Oct 20, 2013

TORONTO - A Canadian Forces veteran’s dream of becoming a police officer was crushed and his life turned upside down when he was accused of attempted murder.
The accusation continues to hang over his head — three years later.

So when Warren Bate, 37, heard former Oshawa councillor Robert Lutzcyk — behind bars for an abduction and lengthy stand-off with Durham Regional Police last fall — faced charges for a cache of ammunition, explosives and rifle identical to items investigators have tried to link him to since 2010, he was stunned.
“If they’ve charged someone else, I don’t understand how I can still be a suspect,” the Bowmanville man recently told the Toronto Sun.

Legally, police can list someone as a person of interest in a crime indefinitely.
Lutczyk, 46, was arrested following the gunpoint abduction of Oshawa City Solicitor David Potts in October 2012. While in custody awaiting a preliminary hearing on more than 20 charges stemming from the kidnapping, he was slapped with another seven charges last month.

The new charges stem from ammunition, explosives and a Remington Woodmaster rifle found in Clarington on Aug. 20, 2010.

Bate, who first shared his story in the Sun in June 2012, hoped to become a police officer after serving his country for 12 years as a reservist. His life was derailed with the discovery of a stash of munitions on Aug. 20, 2010 — identical to the one connected to the new charges against Lutczyk.
In October 2010, he was called by Durham police — one of the services he applied to — to come in and discuss their recruiting process.

But when Bate walked into the police station, he was instead accused of attempted murder for a sniper-style shooting of a pick-up truck on Hwy. 401 at Courtice Rd. a few months earlier.
Police records show Bate, who has no criminal record, was interrogated for six hours and he claims at one point a cop accused him of “leading a double life like Russell Williams,” the Canadian Forces colonel imprisoned for murder and rape.

Medical records show Bate was still healing from a recent back surgery at the time when police alleged he was stalking through the woods sniping at the truck.

 

[Lightguns]

Story is a little vague, has the other fellow admitted to the cache or are the police charging him for that specific cache or is he alluding the cache was similar therefore it must be him.