Former Soldier's Dreams Crushed by Shooting Accusations - Article

[armyvern]

Exactly...

Having said that though, I'd have to say there is a little more to this than meets the eye - every barrack box I've returned had to be ID free and sticker free.  I took the stickers off with solvent and was handed a can of spray paint to cover the ID painted on previously.  :2c:

MM

Well, Supply Policy states that all markings shall be removed from Barrack Boxes before we accept them for return at Clothing Stores; exactly why we keep bottles of fingernail polish remover and cans of olive drab spray paint at our front counters. If he returned his barrack boxes upon release, it would certainly show on the CFSS and in his paperwork.

BUT, as demonstrated during the barrack box recall of 6 or 7 years ago, many operational things occur which cause us to recall and forego the removal of markings - back from one troop and handed immediately to another deploying member with repainting to occur at Unit level for deployment. The possibility that it was returned without having the markings removed certainly exists.

It was also demonstrated during that recall that many members have managed to "accrue" extra barrack boxes over and above their two entitled throughout their careers. Some brought 3 or 4 in to us during the recalls, yet only officially had 2 on their docs. So, it is also possible that someone releasing may have more than those on their docs (certainly marked kit if they ever used it to deploy/field etc), but only return the number that they "officially" own and keep the extra post-release. Their docs would show them returning those they "officially owned", but certainly doesn't mean they didn't acquire extras that they didn't return or have marked.

__________________________
My little pony stickers on the "evidence"?? Seriously?? If I were an investigator, I'd be sending out a full colour "Wanted" poster of the barrack box in question to every elementary and middle school in the entire area to shown to each student because you just know somewhere out there, a little girl is going to say, "Hey!! That's my daddies (or mommies) locker and those are my stickers!! Aren't they pretty?"

I guarantee that dude din't return it to Clothing, in any circumstance, with my little pony stickers on it. That either occurred with a subsequent owner, or dude didn't turn it in at all.

 

[Teeps74]

I suppose some units do things differently. Am, was and always a reservist. My boxes came from base clothing. They were tracking my original boxes issued to me in 1993. It is possible they were unit held, and 638s torn an return.

Still, "we have a box with your name on it..." is pretty flimsy evidence. Lot numbers, natures, check the pay guides... Two years later, I would hope that there is more reason why this fella is paying a price. If he is guilty, come out and make it stick...

However, innocent until proven guilty is one of those things we get to enjoy in our society. If all they have is the box, then I am afraid that hanging this over his head with nothing else (two years later, that is exactly how it sounds) is neither fair, nor is it in keeping with the spirit of the Charter.

 

[armyvern]

Hmmm, 2010. This is 2012, and still ongoing.

Last time I dealt with our brethren in clothing stores concerning barrack boxes, it was as if I signed out their own personal stores. Barrack boxes are in the system, were then, ergo the MP would have easily have been able to discern if the gentleman in question had turned it in (assuming it was not an "army surplus" spare).

Innocent until proven guilty. However, 2 year later, this appears to be testing that theory.

Individual Unit QMs issue barrack boxes out on Temp Loan cards when 3rd ones are required for certain tasks etc (absolutely NORMAL situation) ... only those issued out by 2nd Line Clothing Stores are issued to member's personal docs and thus trackable as being returned. Even then, buddy could have acquired an extra throughout his career that wasn't turned in. It happens; often.

I'm not going to burn off any calories jumping to any sort of conclusion on this one.

 

[Redeye]

Well, Supply Policy states that all markings shall be removed from Barrack Boxes before we accept them for return at Clothing Stores; exactly why we keep bottles of fingernail polish remover and cans of olive drab spray paint at our front counters. If he returned his barrack boxes upon release, it would certainly show on the CFSS and in his paperwork.

BUT, as demonstrated during the barrack box recall of 6 or 7 years ago, many operational things occur which cause us to recall and forego the removal of markings - back from one troop and handed immediately to another deploying member with repainting to occur at Unit level for deployment. The possibility that it was returned without having the markings removed certainly exists.

It was also demonstrated during that recall that many members have managed to "accrue" extra barrack boxes over and above their two entitled throughout their careers. Some brought 3 or 4 in to us during the recalls, yet only officially had 2 on their docs. So, it is also possible that someone releasing may have more than those on their docs (certainly marked kit if they ever used it to deploy/field etc), but only return the number that they "officially" own and keep the extra post-release. Their docs would show them returning those they "officially owned", but certainly doesn't mean they didn't acquire extras that they didn't return or have marked.

__________________________
My little pony stickers on the "evidence"?? Seriously?? If I were an investigator, I'd be sending out a full colour "Wanted" poster of the barrack box in question to every elementary and middle school in the entire area to shown to each student because you just know somewhere out there, a little girl is going to say, "Hey!! That's my daddies (or mommies) locker and those are my stickers!! Aren't they pretty?"

I guarantee that dude din't return it to Clothing, in any circumstance, with my little pony stickers on it. That either occurred with a subsequent owner, or dude didn't turn it in at all.

Notwithstanding the policy, I went to exchange my barrack box in Gagetown before deploying because mine (which had a great airbrush job on it, as well as stickers) and neither had to remove stickers nor repaint mine, nor was the box I was issued in that condition - it had the name of its previous owner and his unit from a deployment to Bosnia on it.

It sounds (and this is a one-sided article spurned by Bate's approaching the media himself, granted) as though there's not a whole lot of evidence, but DRPS continues to hold this over his head. Nothing about that is okay.

 

[armyvern]

...

And, as I stated, we had times when ops required us to forego the policy.

 

[ArmyRick]

Back to the issue at hand, I am waiting to see if this guy gets charged or not. As many of us said, thats pretty flimsy evidence. I will be watching this one. Time will tell and if I were a betting man, I will say the guy doesn't get charged.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Personally, if I were trying to clear myself of something like this, or to provoke action on the file, it wouldn't be me giving the interview to the press, it would be my lawyer.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Back to the issue at hand, I am waiting to see if this guy gets charged or not. As many of us said, thats pretty flimsy evidence. I will be watching this one. Time will tell and if I were a betting man, I will say the guy doesn't get charged.

Of course that's like wondering why we can't get convictions in court if we didn't allow the Crown to say anything.

 

[eurowing]

Personally, if I were trying to clear myself of something like this, or to provoke action on the file, it wouldn't be me giving the interview to the press, it would be my lawyer.

Unfortunately, Lawyers are expensive.  Perhaps he is working and can't afford one. 

 

[cupper]

Unfortunately, Lawyers are expensive.  Perhaps he is working and can't afford one. 

More of a question of can he afford a conviction, even though he could be innocent?

 

[Jarnhamar]

Cops are sadly not above dragging their feet on investigations which cause lawyers to go back and forth racking up a lawyers bill. When each 1 minute phone call costs a poor slob $150 your $2000 retainer gets eaten up pretty fast.  Money to write a letter. Money for a second letter. Money to write a letter requesting a reason why the first 3 letters were ignored.  Cops don't give a shit but someone trying to balance their life pay bills and staying out of jail does.  It's easy to say "well it's better than jail right" but people dot realize how devastating and traumatic a false accusation can be to someone.

I'm very pro police (believe it or not) but that's when police are (to me) ethical and don't pull shit like lying to someone to get them into a police station or lying to them luring them to their kids school.

If the police lie about something it's pretty easy to loose faith in their integrity.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

A recent update from the Toronto Sun. Re-produced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act

Ex-soldier vows to clear his name 0

By Chris Doucette ,Toronto Sun

First posted:  Wednesday, June 20, 2012 07:47 PM EDT  | Updated:  Wednesday, June 20, 2012 08:00 PM EDT

Former Canadian soldier Warren Bate, 35, claims his dream of becoming a cop has been crushed and his life turned upside down since Durham police wrongly accused him of attempted murder two years ago. (Chris Doucette/Toronto Sun)

TORONTO - 

Warren Bate knows his dream of becoming a police officer is dead. Now the former Canadian soldier, who claims he has been wrongly accused of attempted murder by Durham Regional Police, just wants his name cleared so he can get on with his life.

But police are not legally obligated to remove the 35-year-old Bowmanville man from their list of suspects in the shooting of a vehicle on Hwy. 401 and several other gunplay incidents from two years ago.

“He could remain a person of interest indefinitely,” Toronto lawyer Sandra Zisckind said. “But their suspicion has to be based in some reality.”

She said the initial investigation into Bate was no doubt “warranted.”

After finding his old army-issued barracks box in a field filled with ammunition and smoke grenades — and connecting the footlocker to the July 28, 2010, Hwy. 401 shooting — it makes sense police would want to question the veteran, Zisckind said.

And while it was mean-spirited to ask the aspiring cop to come in to talk about a possible job, then spring an attempted murder allegation on him, she said there’s nothing illegal about that either.

“Police are allowed to lie as an interrogation tool,” Zisckind said.

But continuing to consider Bate a suspect after he produced Canadian Forces paperwork showing he returned the barracks box when he was honourably discharged after serving his country for 12 years as a reservist could be deemed “malicious prosecution.”

The fact the accusations cost Bate a possible policing career, as well as several other job prospects, could even pave the way for a defamation suit, Zisckind said.

Police claim Bate was never charged with anything so his name won’t show up on CPIC, the computer system used to do criminal background checks.

And yet, after completing testing and interviews with the Ottawa Police Service, Bate received a letter a few months after being questioned in the shootings that notified him his application was declined and he was prohibited from applying to other Ontario police services for a year.

A former Toronto officer said it would be easy enough for a service considering hiring Bate to find out if he had baggage that wasn’t in the computer.

“They would have called his local department and asked if they had ever investigated him,” said the ex-cop, who asked not to be named.

He said Bate is a prime example of the police saying, “You can beat the rap but you can’t beat the ride.”

Bate alleged two cops and a military police officer spent six hours in October 2010 interrogating him, trying to get him to admit he was involved in the shootings.

 

[The Bread Guy]

A recent update from the Toronto Sun. Re-produced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act

Here's the link:
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/06/20/ex-soldier-vows-to-clear-his-name

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Here is some information on the vehicle shooting that Bate is alleged to have committed. The first article is from the Clarington.com website.  The second write-up is from the Durhan Radio News archives. Both are re-produced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

Car shot at on 401 in Courtice

Durham Regional Police are investigating after a bullet struck a vehicle which was entering the Courtice Road westbound on-ramp, at Highway 401 yesterday in Clarington.

On Wednesday July 29, 2010 at approximately 5:15 p.m. an Oshawa motorist entering the Courtice Road westbound on-ramp to the 401 highway heard a sudden bang and felt his vehicle shake. The driver continued to his destination in Oshawa where he observed a bullet hole in the passenger side door of his black Chevrolet pick-up truck, near to the door hinge. The complainant reported the incident immediately to police. The driver was the only occupant in the vehicle at the time of the incident and was not physically injured.

Police responded to the vicinity of the fired shot,. However, suspects or further evidence was not located. The investigation continues and police are appealing for information to the identity of the person responsible. There were not any further incidents reported to police. This appears to be an isolated incident and it is not believed that the victim was targeted.

Last Updated ( Friday, 30 July 2010 00:44 )

 

Article Link

BULLET HITS MOVING VEHICLE

Posted by news | Filed under All News Stories, Crime, Durham

Durham police say a stray bullet hit the passenger side door of a pick-up truck, just after 5:00 pm Wednesdat. An Oshawa was on the Courtice Road on-ramp to the westbound 401, when he heard a bang and felt his vehicle shake. The driver was not hurt and police have extracted the bullet fragments. The investigation into where the bullet came from is ongoing.

Article Link

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Here's the link:
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/06/20/ex-soldier-vows-to-clear-his-name

Much appreciated.

 

[mariomike]

In today's Sun:

"Former soldier Warren Bate's dream of becoming a cop has been crushed and his reputation ruined by a Durham Regional Police officer who has refused to either charge him or remove him as suspect in an attempted murder.

And now the veteran has been left dangling in the wind by the minister of defence, who he recently turned to for help proving that, seven years ago before he was honourably discharged from the Canadian Forces, he returned his barracks box -- the only evidence linking him to shots fired at a car on Hwy. 401 in 2010."
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/11/09/former-soldier-left-dangling-by-defence-minister

 

[Retired AF Guy]

More on Mr. Bate's ongoing saga. Re-produced under the usual provisions of the Copyright Act.

Former soldier left dangling by defence minister

By Chris Doucette, Toronto Sun
First posted: Friday, Novemeber 09, 2012 12:33 AM EST | Updated: Friday, November 09, 2012 12:47 AM EST

Former soldier Warren Bate's dream of becoming a cop has been crushed and his reputation ruined by a Durham Regional Police officer who has refused to either charge him or remove him as suspect in an attempted murder.

And now the veteran has been left dangling in the wind by the minister of defence, who he recently turned to for help proving that, seven years ago before he was honourably discharged from the Canadian Forces, he returned his barracks box -- the only evidence linking him to shots fired at a car on Hwy. 401 in 2010.

Bate received a letter from Peter MacKay last month informing him there is actually no record he returned any of his military gear.

"Bate still has 90 items valued at $4,646.62 that have never been removed from (the Canadian Forces Supply System)," MacKay's letter stated.

"I couldn't believe it," Bate, who served 12 years as a reservist with the Hastings and Prince Edward Regiment, said of MacKay's revelation. "I was stunned."

Before soldiers can be released they must return their military kit to clothing stores, which Bate vividly remembers doing on Aug. 15, 2005, in Bowmanville, where he lives.

Once each item is checked off, the military member's Personal Liability Clearance Card is signed. The soldier then presents the PLCC to be released.

Bate handed over his PLCC and received release papers stating he owes $0 worth of equipment, the only proof he has that he returned his gear.

But that form wasn't enough to prove his innocence two years ago when his old barracks box -- filled with ammunition, smoke grenades and a disguise -- was allegedly found buried by a man walking through a wooded area north of Hwy. 401 off Bennett Rd., east of Bowmanville.

Police claim a rifle was also found under a nearby fallen tree.

It's alleged that rifle was used 10 km west along Hwy. 401 at Courtice Rd. on July 28, 2010, to shoot at a pickup truck.

Bate, who was recovering from back surgery at the time of the shooting, said he was excited when he received a call Oct. 28, 2010, from an officer claiming she worked in the recruiting office for Durham Regional Police -- one of several services he had applied to.

But when he showed up at the police station the next day as requested, his dream was shattered by Det. Paul Dobbs, who informed him he was under arrest for attempted murder and other offences.

After six hours of interrogation, and being accused of "leading a double life just like Russell Williams," Bate was released with no charges.

But two years later he remains a person of interest.

As far as he knows, the footlocker with his name, rank, service number and regimental colours emblazoned on the lid is the only evidence tying him to the shooting.

Bate went public with his story in the Toronto Sun in June, which helped him reclaim his dignity, but didn't clear his name.

He then contacted his MP John O'Toole, who helped him reach out to MacKay.

But MacKay only made things worse without offering much of an explanation.

"The unit erroneously processed his release while the equipment was still on record," MacKay said in his letter. "It's unknown whether this error was committed due to negligence on the unit's part or because the unit was led to believe that the member's records were clear."

"It is unfortunate that this error was committed in 2005 and that Mr. Bate was released from the Canadian Forces with items still on his records," the minister added.

MacKay goes on to say Bate should have returned his kit to 8 Wing clothing stores in Trenton.

But the Sun spoke to half a dozen veterans from Bate's old regiment and none of them returned their gear to CFB Trenton.

One former fellow Hasty Ps was a "storesman" who spent two years issuing kit to new soldiers and collecting kit from outgoing soldiers.

"Bate would not have received his honourable release if he had not returned all his issued kit and cleared stores," Andrew Dean said.

Article Link

 

[Jarnhamar]

Bate received a letter from Peter MacKay last month informing him there is actually no record he returned any of his military gear.

"Bate still has 90 items valued at $4,646.62 that have never been removed from (the Canadian Forces Supply System)," MacKay's letter stated.

bullshit.

Were this the case the reserve regiment would have released him 5F and he would be put in credit collections- which I've seen the reserves send someone too for owing that stupid scarf.

We should write letters to Peter MacKey telling him to fire whoever is giving him shit advice.

 

[dapaterson]

Sounds like the unit never did the paperwork properly - someone signed off that the kit was received back, but never entered it into the system of record.

So the MND had staff go into the system of record, it shows Bloggins still owes kit, and voila!

The fault lies not with the person who ran the report for the MND - it lies with the one(s) wh never enetered the data into the system.

 

[Tank Troll]

This happens more times than people know. Since I started doing recruiting for my unit this has come up quite offten especially with former reservist trying to get back in.