Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )

[Jarnhamar]

So our new fitness test is basically playing around with a sandbag?

 

[Haggis]

We should insist everyone do the new test in its first year.  Wouldn't be fair to let some hold onto the old age & gender biased exempt results.

AFC may endorse exactly that, but I doubt it.  The standard will likely take effect on 01 Apr 13, but the application will be phased in as member's EXPRES/BFTs expire.

Besides, if pers really deserve the exempt status they will earn it again.

My understanding from being a lab rat is that this will be an annual test with no provisions for "EXEMPT' status.  You either do the task within the time alloted or you fail the task (and the test).

 

[dapaterson]

So our new fitness test is basically playing around with a sandbag?

No.

The new fitness standard is a series of tests that are highly correlated with success in the common military tasks that every CF member must be able to complete as a condition of service, designed to be delivered in a wide variety of locations, with minimal training for evaluators and minimal equipment requirements.

 

[McG]

My understanding from being a lab rat is that this will be an annual test with no provisions for "EXEMPT' status.  You either do the task within the time alloted or you fail the task (and the test).

This is as it should be.  If true, then it is all the more reason that pers should not be permitted to carry over an old exempt status into the 13/14 year.

 

[Armymedic]

I await the complaints from people who only wieght 60 kgs about the standard wieght they will have to lift.

Also, shall be interesting to see the massive increases in back pain chits.....

 

[dapaterson]

With proper training for the new fitness test, over time back complaints should decrease as people learn to do proper lifts; that learning should transfer over to their everyday work.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Dragging five sandbags tied together?  Like seriously why do we continuously re-invent the wheel?  We should stick with something like the Cooper's Test which IMO is a great test for evaluating fitness, if its good enough for DHTC I would say its probably good enough for the regular army, with modifications to the scoring of course. 

 

[GnyHwy]

Dragging five sandbags tied together?  Like seriously why do we continuously re-invent the wheel?  We should stick with something like the Cooper's Test which IMO is a great test for evaluating fitness, if its good enough for DHTC I would say its probably good enough for the regular army, with modifications to the scoring of course.

The whole point is to have a test that is realistic to what someone may have to perform in combat.  Dragging a 100Kgs sounds pretty real to me.  The Cooper's test, although a very good test of fitness is not realistic at all.  It is not likely in war that anyone will need to run a mile and a half, followed by doing a bunch of pushups and situps, followed by finding a bench press to do the last part.

At first glance, this test seems easier than the express test, but maybe it's because I weigh more than a buck o five

 

[dapaterson]

Dragging five sandbags tied together?  Like seriously why do we continuously re-invent the wheel?  We should stick with something like the Cooper's Test which IMO is a great test for evaluating fitness, if its good enough for DHTC I would say its probably good enough for the regular army, with modifications to the scoring of course.

Does the Cooper's Test predict success at the Common Military Tasks?  If not, it doesn't meet the requirement.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

The whole point is to have a test that is realistic to what someone may have to perform in combat.  Dragging a 100Kgs sounds pretty real to me.  The Cooper's test, although a very good test of fitness is not realistic at all.  It is not likely in war that anyone will need to run a mile and a half, followed by doing a bunch of pushups and situps, followed by finding a bench press to do the last part.

At first glance, this test seems easier than the express test, but maybe it's because I weigh more than a buck o five

How common is it in war that someone will have to drag 5 sandbags tied together along the ground, probably not very.  You could also achieve this with a sled-pull.  Part of being a professional soldier is being fit, with fit applying maintaining a certain level of "fitness" thus conducting a "fitness" test like the Cooper's Test would serve the purpose.

Does the Cooper's Test predict success at the Common Military Tasks?  If not, it doesn't meet the requirement.

I would argue it does, how does lifting a sandbag to a certain height over and over again mean you are anymore capable then someone that can benchpress 240lbs and complete 60 pushups and 12 pullups.  If you are strong on a Cooper's test you are going to be strong on this test no doubt in my mind.  As well the Cooper's test gives you the ability to gauge progress more easily.

With proper training for the new fitness test, over time back complaints should decrease as people learn to do proper lifts; that learning should transfer over to their everyday work.

What would really help is to get everyone on some sort of strength and resistance training program.  Getting everyone to put 10 or 20lbs of muscle on their frames would do a lot to alleviate back/joint problems.  A lot of injuries are down to poor body mechanics which with proper resistance training and some stretching could be corrected or atleast compensated for.


I would really like to see testing brought back to the unit level.  I would love to see Platoons taking their guys out and being able to administer a test such as the Cooper's Test as they would not only be able to hold their own guys more accountable but it would also empower the leadership within our units. 

 

[dapaterson]

How common is it in war that someone will have to drag 5 sandbags tied together along the ground, probably not very.  You could also achieve this with a sled-pull.  Part of being a professional soldier is being fit, with fit applying maintaining a certain level of "fitness" thus conducting a "fitness" test like the Cooper's Test would serve the purpose.

And what is a unit more likely to have available in their lines - a sled or sandbags?  Better to use inexpensive, readily available equipment.

Does the Cooper's Test predict success at the Common Military Tasks?  If not, it doesn't meet the requirement.

I would argue it does, how does lifting a sandbag to a certain height over and over again mean you are anymore capable then someone that can benchpress 240lbs and complete 60 pushups and 12 pullups.  If you are strong on a Cooper's test you are going to be strong on this test no doubt in my mind.  As well the Cooper's test gives you the ability to gauge progress more easily.

But can you demonstrate that through documented studies?  And again, what's easier to find and use for testing for a large group?

Besides, there's nothing that says "You must only do the new test and may not use the Cooper's test".  For PERs, you will be required to complete the new test.  But for fitness training there is no restriction.

What would really help is to get everyone on some sort of strength and resistance training program.  Getting everyone to put 10 or 20lbs of muscle on their frames would do a lot to alleviate back/joint problems.  A lot of injuries are down to poor body mechanics which with proper resistance training and some stretching could be corrected or atleast compensated for.

Amen to that.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

And what is a unit more likely to have available in their lines - a sled or sandbags?  Better to use inexpensive, readily available equipment.

Point taken, perhaps we could substitute 5 sandbags for a large tire attached to a rope, go all Rocky Balboa!

But can you demonstrate that through documented studies?  And again, what's easier to find and use for testing for a large group?

Besides, there's nothing that says "You must only do the new test and may not use the Cooper's test".  For PERs, you will be required to complete the new test.  But for fitness training there is no restriction.

I would say it would be pretty easy to conduct a Cooper's test to me this test seems just as equipment intensive and more time consuming which is always an issue when testing a large group. 

On the issue of documentation, I personally can't provide it but their must be a reason DHTC uses the Cooper's Test for Assaulter Selection?  I wonder if doing the Cooper's test was even considered or how they decided on what the test would be.

I am personally not a fan of PSP, not because I don't think they provide a good service; however, I feel by putting the ball in their court in terms of conducting these tests we are not empowering our leadership to evaluate their own guys.  A Cooper's test would easily be able to be conducted at the sub-unit level and would give NCO's control over their guys.  We already let NCO's administer tests such as the Para Test so why not let them administer PT tests as well?

 

[McG]

I am personally not a fan of PSP, not because I don't think they provide a good service; however, I feel by putting the ball in their court in terms of conducting these tests we are not empowering our leadership to evaluate their own guys.  A Cooper's test would easily be able to be conducted at the sub-unit level and would give NCO's control over their guys.  We already let NCO's administer tests such as the Para Test so why not let them administer PT tests as well?

Good news - the new test is not intended to be administered by PSP.  Does this resolve your concerns?

 

[WestCoaster]

I am personally not a fan of PSP, not because I don't think they provide a good service; however, I feel by putting the ball in their court in terms of conducting these tests we are not empowering our leadership to evaluate their own guys.  A Cooper's test would easily be able to be conducted at the sub-unit level and would give NCO's control over their guys.  We already let NCO's administer tests such as the Para Test so why not let them administer PT tests as well?

To play devil's advocate for a moment (and I will admit my bias since my wife is PSP), the benefit that PSP bring is that they are outside the CoC. Going to unit-level testers brings about the possibility of rank-, peer- and "buddy"-pressure applied to the testers. I personally hear stories of some members trying to pull rank on PSP to add a point to their handgrip score in order to obtain a pass, so I would hate to see what would happen if a PO2/MS was forced to test a CPO2 or LT(N). Now think of testing near PER season and imagine how tough it might be for some testers to fail anyone in their CoC. I feel an outside and honest agent (which many PSP staff are, believe it or not) should run any fitness test (no matter what form they are) in order to ensure the validity of these career impacting tests.

Edited for grammar.

 

[Stoker]

To play devil's advocate for a moment (and I will admit my bias since my wife is PSP), the benefit that PSP bring is that they are outside the CoC. Going to unit-level testers brings about the possibility of rank-, peer- and "buddy"-pressure applied to the testers. I personally hear stories of some members trying to pull rank on PSP to add a point to their handgrip score in order to obtain a pass, so I would hate to see what would happen if a PO2/MS was forced to test a CPO2 or LT(N). Now think of testing near PER season and imagine how tough it might be for some testers to fail anyone in their CoC. I feel an outside and honest agent (which many PSP staff are, believe it or not) should run any fitness test (no matter what form they are) in order to ensure the validity of these career impacting tests.

Edited for grammar.

Then again I don't think a civi should have say over a promotion or career course if they potentially fail someone either. As for being fair, in my experience it widely varies from staff to staff, with many complaints against certain PSP staff in Halifax and some well founded. Truth be known we don't know who will be administrating the new test, I suspect it still end of being PSP staff.

 

[GnyHwy]

How common is it in war that someone will have to drag 5 sandbags tied together along the ground, probably not very.

It is the easiest way to simulate dragging an injured soldier, without acutally dragging anyone, and keeping everyone to the same standard.

I would argue it does, how does lifting a sandbag to a certain height over and over again mean you are anymore capable then someone that can benchpress 240lbs and complete 60 pushups and 12 pullups. 

It doesn't, but once again, it is a simple way of simulating work, things like defensive building, or humping ammo.

I would really like to see testing brought back to the unit level.  I would love to see Platoons taking their guys out and being able to administer a test such as the Cooper's Test as they would not only be able to hold their own guys more accountable but it would also empower the leadership within our units.

Your CO has the freedom to do that, but leadership cannot hold persons accountable if they have met the standard (BET,CF Express, or soon FORCE) already.  The Cooper's test is great, but it will always be considered advanced training.  Fitness, although extremely important is only one facet of a soldier's worth.  I'd like to see advanced math tests coupled with map and compass tests used.  Perhaps advanced weapon handling and knowledge as well.  There are many things you can test on an advanced scale, but once everyone has past the standard, all those tests just become good training.

 

[AmmoTech90]

Then again I don't think a civi should have say over a promotion or career course if they potentially fail someone either. As for being fair, in my experience it widely varies from staff to staff, with many complaints against certain PSP staff in Halifax and some well founded. Truth be known we don't know who will be administrating the new test, I suspect it still end of being PSP staff.

PSP doesn't fail anyone on PT test.  The person being tested fails themself.

Edit: Tense

 

[Haggis]

Going to unit-level testers brings about the possibility of rank-, peer- and "buddy"-pressure applied to the testers. I personally hear stories of some members trying to pull rank on PSP to add a point to their handgrip score in order to obtain a pass, so I would hate to see what would happen if a PO2/MS was forced to test a CPO2 or LT(N).

Maybe it's time for the integrity fairy to kick people in the junk when they pull rank on folks who are doing what thier duty requires of them.

Now think of testing near PER season and imagine how tough it might be for some testers to fail anyone in their CoC.

One way around this is to have members from Unit X test members from Unit Y.

PSP doesn't fail anyone on PT test.  The person being tested fails themselves.

True dat!  The test is designed in such a way that all subjectivity has been removed. (e.g. what constitutes a "good" push-up).  You either complete the task in the time alloted or you don't.  There's no "you didn't use proper technique" on the sandbag lift, drag, rushes or shuttles.

 

[Haggis]

What would really help is to get everyone on some sort of strength and resistance training program.  Getting everyone to put 10 or 20lbs of muscle on their frames would do a lot to alleviate back/joint problems.  A lot of injuries are down to poor body mechanics which with proper resistance training and some stretching could be corrected or atleast compensated for.

Have you looked at or tried some of the workouts on www.DFit.ca?  The aim of the programs (and there are many) is to allow members to scale the workouts to their needs. 

As I noted earlier, I'm a lab rat for the Project.  In the last phase, we were tested against the new standard and then given a five week www.DFit.ca program to follow religiously.  At the end of the five weeks we were tested again and all of us improved  - some quite significantly - in all the tests.

 

[dapaterson]

On the issue of documentation, I personally can't provide it but their must be a reason DHTC uses the Cooper's Test for Assaulter Selection?  I wonder if doing the Cooper's test was even considered or how they decided on what the test would be.

How was the test decided?

Short version:  Lots of study.


Longer version:

There are the Common Military Tasks that every CF member must be able to perform.  There are six: stretcher carry; picket and wire carry; escape to cover; sandbag fortification; vehicle extraction; and picking and digging.

The team conducting the research had pers perform the common tasks, then had them perform a variety of other tests - from simulations to fitness tests.  They could then identify correlations between the sample tests and the Common Tasks.

So, for example, the success on the new test where you sprint 40m, carry a sandbag 40m, and repeat for 400m total has a .824 correlation to success in the picket and wire carry. 

The researchers looked across their data (which was based on a sample of 666 CF members, with a mix of environments, ages and occupations) and identified a set of tests that have good correlations to the common military tasks.