Fireman Carry replaced by Casualty Drag

[Jammer]

Just so you don't get to engrossed in yourself Pet...we who are so humbled by your ilk are standing in awe of your status.
Wait a sec....There a some of us who do mulitple BFTs every year in the trg system. Usually because the soldiers on the crses we instruct are required to do one before graduating.
Me...43 yrs old and STILL able to come in under 2hrs...crushing troops half my age...sorry about bursting your narrow minded vision but I understand your limited exposure to the rest of the field force.

 

[SeanNewman]

What???  I have no idea why you just posted what you did.  In fact, I even deliberately stated that I make no claims to be super fit, yet your response is quite bitter.

There must be no doubt that while there are exceptions, certain trades are generally more fit than others.  That is not at all to say that to be in the infantry = more fit than Logistics.  In fact, there were several non-infanteers who beat me in the Ironman when I did it.  I got top third, but all sorts of people beat me.

As for multiple BFTs, that was my whole point.  There are some of us who do BFTs (by name) multiple times a year, and there are some of us who don't even call it a BFT, we just call it "trying to catch up to the British OC on Wednesday"  when we cover about 15 km in 90 minutes.

I'm still kind of stunned at why you responded the way you did, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.  If anything, if you are fit, it is more than likely that you are just as upset when you see people going the other direction who you know there is no way that they could possibly pass any sort of physical test.

My post was not aimed at trades, but individual people who should be thinned from the herd but aren't.

 

[aesop081]

For us, the Basic Fitness Test is the one thing that we "must" pass in a year.

Must be nice to have only one thing to pass each year......

but there are some pers who must dedicate several months of their lives to work-up training in order to pass it, and then are so physically destroyed after doing it that they go on light duties for a month because their feet turn into one giant blister.

There some giant bags of shit out there, no argument. But then there are folks who are not so fortunate as to work in units able to have "morning PT". There are some people who have to put in 14+ hour days at their job just so the unit can stay afloat so when you factor in having to take care of things at home, PT has to take a backseat until you have to workup somehow just prior to the test.

I'm not making excuses for people but i'm a guy who is in a situation like that and as a single parent, its always a struggle to find time for working out. I do but it aint easy.

 

[a_majoor]

Throwing a little fuel on the fire:

I can see doing this drag as being more a more realistic means of dealing with casualties, but have a hard time picturing how I would grab the vest to ensure I have a firm hold and am able to actually pull the victim. At my weight and size I am fairly sure the person pulling me would have a strap in his/her hand at the finish line while I am lying (a bit disgruntled) on the ground 10 m away.

A more realistic means of dealing with a casualty would be to have two soldiers grabbing through the arm holes (one on each side) and pulling facing the direction of travel. This would not be an individual test but a fire team test.

Instead of having to guess at the weight of the casualty, a standard crash test dummy weighing at least 100 Kg should be the standard (to simulate the wieght of IPE and equipment).

 

[Bzzliteyr]

As it has been said by somebody above, I imagine the "dragging" technique qould be to actually slide your hand in horizontally between the vest and back (kind of like a shield would be held) and then grabbing and dragging? 

I imagine a two handed drag could also be done.. surely the soldiers will try out many different methods and surely there will be RSMs that have approved "by the book" ways (that aren't in the book but who are we to argue?) that we will have to deal with.  Just like there are troops with "high speed, non sparking" rucksacks and others with the good old unmodified 82 pattern.

Only time will tell!

 

[George Wallace]

You don't "fireman carry" a person out of a burning vehicle; you drag them.

You don't "fireman carry" a person under fire, using them as a "bullet stop"; you drag them.

Does a drag make any sense now?

 

[Jarnhamar]

Hulldown I was going to reply to your post but then I noticed your MP points so I figured never mind.

Hey Mike, I guess those points work after all!  ;D

As far as the OP goes I'd rather drag someone then fireman carry them.
Someone above made a good point, this sucker has probably hurt more people in the CF than it's saved.

 

[ModlrMike]

Someone above made a good point, this sucker has probably hurt more people in the CF than it's saved.

That would be me, and to add another observation:

From a physics point of view, you can move greater weight by dragging than lifting. The first only requires that you overcome inertia, the second requires you overcome both inertia and gravity.

 

[SeanNewman]

But then there are folks who are not so fortunate as to work in units able to have "morning PT". There are some people who have to put in 14+ hour days at their job just so the unit can stay afloat so when you factor in having to take care of things at home, PT has to take a backseat until you have to workup somehow just prior to the test.

I disagree with that entirely.  PT should always be part of your routine, and if the CDS can find time to run around Ottawa, I think he is slightly busier than us.  I'm fairly busy and I do PT.  My boss is busier and he does PT.  And his boss the CO is really busy and he's a PT machine.

Fitness is a CDS-level directive, so if you work in a place that takes strides to avoid PT because you're "too busy", then I genuinely feel sorry for you because you are being done a disservice.

 

[mariomike]

It's probably been mentioned, and I know it's obvious, but, anytime you lift someone, there is a risk of dropping them. With a "two-handed drag <snip> by the tac vest/webbing" unsecured falls from a height can be avoided.
By handling the casualty, who will be on the ground facing away from you, by straps only, it should be mentally easier on the rescuer. Especially if you know the victim. There was no nice way of saying that.
Similar to dragging by SCBA straps. In extreme cases, a 3/4 inch rope, or pike pole ( if available ) can be used for rescue/recovery.
It is probably a more comfortable position for the casualty to breathe, rather than the Fireman's Carry. Also, probably less likely to agravate trauma to the head, torso and arms.
This discussion has "re-kindled" memories of old time firemen. Back when we had more fires.  The over-the-sholder carry back then, whether it makes sense or not, was a very impressive heroic sight. It used to remind me of the old Tarzan and Jane movies we watched as kids! Everyone was very excited.
Sometimes, Policemen did it too, if first on scene.
"Smoke Eaters" kicked their shoes off and hopped on the back step of the truck as it screamed ( regardless of the hour! ) out of the hall, and stood on it hanging to the handrails for dear life in the open air all the way to the fire. They seldom wore SCBA ( even as late as the summer of 1993, the Chief himself of the old TFD collapsed from smoke inhalation at Kensington Market, and never really did recover ). So, often, there was no straps or equipment worn on their sholders and backs to interfere with the Fireman's Carry. The victims were often the very young or old ( big strong people seemed to usually make it out ) and dressed in nothing more than bed clothes. Maybe a waist belt.
Gilbert Grape bariatric lifts were interesting, and are becoming much more common.
Sometimes, it looked like the firemen were going to barf up their lungs, so you had to keep an eye on them. Sometimes, people say they feel fine after taking smoke, then suddenly drop dead an hour later.
When you read stories about all these people treated and released for smoke inhalation, it implies that their injuries were not serious. But, that's not true.
Mostly, they just wanted a cigarette and an Orange Crush. ;D
Thanks for reading!

 

[Jarnhamar]

I disagree with that entirely.  PT should always be part of your routine, and if the CDS can find time to run around Ottawa, I think he is slightly busier than us.

You're joking right?  Have you ever seen a CDS? They have a throng of officers who would push each other infront of a speeding bus just to do PT FOR him lol.

I'm fairly busy and I do PT.  My boss is busier and he does PT.  And his boss the CO is really busy and he's a PT machine.

Fitness is a CDS-level directive, so if you work in a place that takes strides to avoid PT because you're "too busy", then I genuinely feel sorry for you because you are being done a disservice.

I Agree that PT needs to be worked into a schedule but between being proactive at work and trying to find time to be a parent and make sure your kid recognizes you I can see how someones PT can suffer. (Mine is) 

 

[SeanNewman]

I think the big picture for a lot of this is just basic professionalism and personal discipline.  Some people take Duty, quite literally and want to do everything they can to achieve their maximum potential/performance.

I am by no means the pinnacle of what it means to be a super soldier, but imagine the hypothetical one if you will:

They stay fit, they get their hair cut, and the shine the hell out of their boots, because the uniform means something to them and when they are seen in public they want people to think that soldiers in the CF are top notch people who are clean cut and the ideal of what someone can be...

...then that soldier, while in uniform, sees another person in uniform but this one has a gut pouring out over their belt, physically straining the buttons on their shirt.  Under that second person's headdress is a large quoif of hair bulging out that looks like it hasn't been cut in two months, and their uniform looks like junk.

If I were an average Canadian I probably wouldn't be that impressed with seeing that second person, and if I were a hard charger I'd probably be less willing to join because I don't want to be any part of that.  Further, putting myself in the boots of the first soldier, I would probably wish that the minimum standards were higher so people like that second person weren't allowed to embarrass the flag.

Most of us on this board are in the middle of that spectrum, but at least we don't bring shame to the uniform.  That's where I'm coming from with the fitness thing; does everyone have time to do 2 hours of PT per day?  Of course not, but you shouldn't give up on it, either.

 

[armyvern]

I think the big picture for a lot of this is just basic professionalism and personal discipline.  Some people take Duty, quite literally and want to do everything they can to achieve their maximum potential/performance.

I am by no means the pinnacle of what it means to be a super soldier, but imagine the hypothetical one if you will:

They stay fit, they get their hair cut, and the shine the hell out of their boots, because the uniform means something to them and when they are seen in public they want people to think that soldiers in the CF are top notch people who are clean cut and the ideal of what someone can be...

...then that soldier, while in uniform, sees another person in uniform but this one has a gut pouring out over their belt, physically straining the buttons on their shirt.  Under that second person's headdress is a large quoif of hair bulging out that looks like it hasn't been cut in two months, and their uniform looks like junk.

If I were an average Canadian I probably wouldn't be that impressed with seeing that second person, and if I were a hard charger I'd probably be less willing to join because I don't want to be any part of that.  Further, putting myself in the boots of the first soldier, I would probably wish that the minimum standards were higher so people like that second person weren't allowed to embarrass the flag.

Most of us on this board are in the middle of that spectrum, but at least we don't bring shame to the uniform.  That's where I'm coming from with the fitness thing; does everyone have time to do 2 hours of PT per day?  Of course not, but you shouldn't give up on it, either.

You are so out of touch with reality that it's fucking hilarious. You epitomize the "stereotypical" type of officer that we bottom-feeders love to hate.

You haven't got a clue. Step out of your office and come do our jobs before you run your ignorant mouth off about "who has time for what" and try to insinuate that you do have a clue when to the rest of us it is painfully obvious that you are "all about me".

Sure, the CDS is busy - I don't think anyone would dispute that - but here's a fact-check for you. I just left that place where you are now - you want to bounce around the idea that "we had even more time to do PT than the CDS because the CDS is busy too" - bounce this around your skull for a bit:

I did three BFTs on three sucessive Monday mornings. Now, why is that? Because "we" have to split our BFTs into three because gawd-forbid we actually went to "closing Tech Svcs" so that we could do it all as one big group. The very first person to bitch had we done that ... would have been someone exactly like you. "How come clothing is closed? How come the BOR is closed?" "My troops on courses need service and you aren't providing it by being closed!!"

Monday mornings. Why? Because Friday's are tech Svcs busiest days of the week (because that's when the schools mostly let their students slide on a Friday afternoon so that they can get out to get their "adm" business handled. Back to work after lunch on Monday afternoon after the BFT too - because gawd forbid we be short staffed to serve those customers after lunch when the hike was in the morning.

By the way, we also did 10 weeks of work-ups. Why is that? Because the LFCO says it SHALL be so. I'm quite sure that you have a computer with which you can verify that little factoid which seems to be above your grasp. It's not that we "require" or even "need" to do the work-ups ... we do them because the rules say we HAVE to. Get that through your head.

Not a single person I marched with has ever been happy with the fact that we do the BFT WUs ... we all bitched and said "just give us our rifles already and let us be done with it."

As for "time in the day to do PT" and your insistance that "some" people just don't give a shit and, apparently, have all kinds of time (as opposed to the CDS). PM me your real name - I'm quite willing to arrange a week of work for you down here with us bottom-feeders in the real world; word up - it'll be at clothing stores where you don't get coffee breaks, where you'll get a 1/2 hour for lunch, where you'll get bitched at constantly by asshats like you because you "had" to go do a BFT or IBTS and thus a third of the staff are missing, and where you'll be expected to serve approx 1000 customers a week - a whole hell of a lot which will need complete kittings of operational kit (approx 75 items each).

Step out of your office - I think you've been walking around with your eyes wide shut for far too long because you actually believe the bullshit you spout.

 

[Kat Stevens]

I think the big picture for a lot of this is just basic professionalism and personal discipline.  Some people take Duty, quite literally and want to do everything they can to achieve their maximum potential/performance.

I am by no means the pinnacle of what it means to be a super soldier, but imagine the hypothetical one if you will:

They stay fit, they get their hair cut, and the shine the hell out of their boots, because the uniform means something to them and when they are seen in public they want people to think that soldiers in the CF are top notch people who are clean cut and the ideal of what someone can be...

...then that soldier, while in uniform, sees another person in uniform but this one has a gut pouring out over their belt, physically straining the buttons on their shirt.  Under that second person's headdress is a large quoif of hair bulging out that looks like it hasn't been cut in two months, and their uniform looks like junk.

If I were an average Canadian I probably wouldn't be that impressed with seeing that second person, and if I were a hard charger I'd probably be less willing to join because I don't want to be any part of that.  Further, putting myself in the boots of the first soldier, I would probably wish that the minimum standards were higher so people like that second person weren't allowed to embarrass the flag.

Most of us on this board are in the middle of that spectrum, but at least we don't bring shame to the uniform.  That's where I'm coming from with the fitness thing; does everyone have time to do 2 hours of PT per day?  Of course not, but you shouldn't give up on it, either.

Do you ever stop to wonder why your fat bastard looks like that, or do you just default to lazy prick setting?  I screwed my back hard on Her Majesties Service in '97.  It took me a year to learn to walk upright again, I was unable to run on roads or lift weights, and my weight went way up.  I'm a guy who has a polar bear's metabolism, and can literally spend hours on a treadmill or eliptical and get nothing out of it.  I spent the next 6 years on "temporary" categories, and I contributed to the army to the best of my ability every day, probably more so than some of the high speed low drag super fit morons in the regiment.  Other than the gut, the slug you describe sounds like the JTF2 guys I've encountered.

 

[armyvern]

Do you ever stop to wonder why your fat bastard looks like that, or do you just default to lazy prick setting?  I screwed my back hard on Her Majesties Service in '97.  It took me a year to learn to walk upright again, I was unable to run on roads or lift weights, and my weight went way up.  I'm a guy who has a polar bear's metabolism, and can literally spend hours on a treadmill or eliptical and get nothing out of it.  I spent the next 6 years on "temporary" categories, and I contributed to the army to the best of my ability every day, probably more so than some of the high speed low drag super fit morons in the regiment.  Other than the gut, the slug you describe sounds like the JTF2 guys I've encountered.

Excellent point Kat.

Reminds me of a saying I used to state to my ex (an RCR type at the school) when he used to complain that I couldn't run as fast as he could: "Yeash, but I outshoot you on the range every year - and it just don't matter how fast you run ... my bullet IS going to catch your ass every single time".

 

[Occam]

I'm quite willing to arrange a week of work for you down here with us bottom-feeders in the real world; word up - it'll be at clothing stores where you don't get coffee breaks, where you'll get a 1/2 hour for lunch, where you'll get bitched at constantly by asshats like you because you "had" to go do a BFT or IBTS and thus a third of the staff are missing, and where you'll be expected to serve approx 1000 customers a week - a whole hell of a lot which will need complete kittings of operational kit (approx 75 items each).

Gee, you need a better union at Gagetown.  The clothing stores in Ottawa is only open 0900-1400, and entirely closed on Fridays.  Come to think of it, clothing stores is closed on a Monday or a Friday on many bases.  That's not to suggest that those are the working hours of the clothing stores staff as I'm sure they put in a full day Mon-Thur (Nobody can be sure about Friday, as there are no customers around to know one way or the other).  I think they have plenty of time to fit in PT in their days.

I sure wish I had the freedom to say "Sorry, we're not accepting any trouble tickets or dealing with any clients on Fridays anymore, that's going to be our designated day for catching up on the backlog".

 

[SeanNewman]

It is specifically because I work in an office (now) that I can say I have seen things on both sides of the fence...and on both sides fitness has been important.

Five years ago as a platoon commander I was surrounded by light infantry hard-charging soldiers, and make no mistake...what they say about out of shape people in uniform is a hell of a lot more blunt and less political than the way I phrased it above.

It is specifically because I'm standing up for those soldiers' beliefs that I am saying what I am here.

Curse me if you want, but if you are as fit as you say you are then you should be just as unimpressed with out-of-shape people as I am.

I'm not sure what you're upset about, because I even stated it wasn't as simple as being trade specific, before further stressing that I have met all sorts of non-Infantry soldiers who were more fit than I am (and outperformed me).

 

[SeanNewman]

...and it just don't matter how fast you run ... my bullet IS going to catch your *** every single time".

A fat and out of shape person would never make it to the battlefield.  He would either get sick and worn down from climate changes, or pass out long before he got to the objective.

It has nothing to do with running fast, it's all about being fit.  And as with many other times, I have said that being in a trade does not mean you will or will not be fit.

Perhaps your bullet will catch a fit person when you're thumb smashing on Call of Duty, but in the real world you can expect to carry some weight for a while, and odds are if you have to struggle to do a BFT then you'll be in the back.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The point of this thread is about the change from the Fireman's Carry to the drag. That's all, that's it.

If you feel the need to vent about someone that YOU think doesn't meet YOUR standard, go for a jog. We won't miss anything you have to say. We haven't so far.

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[SeanNewman]

The point of this thread is about the change from the Fireman's Carry to the drag. That's all, that's it.
Milnet.ca Staff

Good point, and you're right.  Originally it got brought up because the change is good and more realistic, but hopefully it won't result in an easier test overall.

That's where I was coming from.  Kudos to you for thread un-jacking.