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Drug use/drug testing in the CF (merged)

  • Thread starter Thread starter Dire
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I tend to agree in part. the use of Drugs may be forbidden and the penalty for there use well known. One would think that if you have a booze problem they offer rehab, if you beat your spouce they offer help but if you smoke a joint then your problem is outside there umbrella of support. one would think that in a financially strapped system everyone would be worth saving. With soldiers driving around in on ILTIS, and helicopters falling out of the sky, one would think that you would not want to piss training funds away on retraining just because of an I TOLD YOU SO..
 
If the public had access to military records of illegal drug use in the forces they would find that at least 35% or more of the personell have used some sort of narcotic sometime in their career.
And your source for this statistic would be what?


Mike
 
Soldiers continuously endure stress and i think for that reason the (usually )minor problems of drug use should be over-looked .Unless traning for or on an operaton taking drugs isnt hurting anyone if you use in moderation ,much like anything else.
 
Actually, I am happy they are taking care of this, it just might show the public the CF are serious about drug use, and do not hesitate to take action.
It seems to me one of the troops didn‘t like the thought of going to Afghanistan with potheads around... can‘t blame him, he did the right thing.
Totally agree. Some may call him a "blade", but I think this is for the best of the Army. Despite societies tolerance for dope, the military shall remain a bedrock against drug use.
 
That is a pretty bold statement, ex-Towgunner. Any proof (Freedom to information, DND studies?). I find it hard to believe that 1 in 3 soldiers would lay aside their professionalism in order to get high.

Yes indeed there are other reasons like just to be able to get out of another deployment and this may likely be the case here. Who would really want to serve in a place like Afghanistan? Knowing that you are vulnerable to anything at anytime an adversary can do to inflict terror and casualties, as we are already getting use too.
I don‘t know, but reservists always seem to be willing to volunteer to go over. I think you are not giving enough credit to the professionalism and motivation of our troops.

Soldiers continuously endure stress and i think for that reason the (usually )minor problems of drug use should be over-looked .Unless traning for or on an operaton taking drugs isnt hurting anyone if you use in moderation ,much like anything else.
...and condone illicit substance abuse as an acceptable form of stress relief. You are out to lunch.
If you can‘t trust a soldier to hold his word on drugs, could you trust them with much else?
 
Originally posted by Michael OLeary:
[qb]
If the public had access to military records of illegal drug use in the forces they would find that at least 35% or more of the personell have used some sort of narcotic sometime in their career.
And your source for this statistic would be what?


Mike [/qb]
Mike I appreciate your question. My answer to it would be that I think I have a pretty good guesstimate on it. Statistic wise I dont have any concrete information. I have served with many in the years I was in, I‘ve seen guys come and seen them go. Whether they are Infantry, Armoured or Air Force & Navy, the problem with drug abuse is there. There is no doubt about it. Just like Civy street, but on a smaller scale. JMHO
 
Hmmmm. Wondered when THAT was going to creep in. That, "It's almost legal now, so why not let a grunt have a toke now and then?â ? question.

Paras, if you've read the other thread in this forum, "CFB Valcartier soldiers tested for drug useâ ?, you'll know that I'm uniquely qualified to hold an opinion here, so here's my two cents.

The two cpls. that were charged from my pl. were not what any commander would term "idealâ ? soldiers. They maybe started out just relieving "stressâ ?, but they weren't under any stress that I could see. They hung with a clique of about eight other guys from the bn. who were also charged. I forget exactly how many total were implicated, wasn't my focus at the time. Every ex. we were on, these two would find any excuse to leave the pl. to find others of their stripe. They were rude, and their idea of a good joke was to pull rank and have some poor FNG perform some disgusting or degrading act. They couldn't be counted on to perform ANY task without supervision, unless it was a task where all THEY had to do was supervise. When they got back from Edmonton, they hadn't changed any except that now they thought that their time in jail somehow made them Ãœber-grunts.

Let's not ignore the fact that the CF has good reasons for its policies on drug and alcohol use. All studies that I have heard of that had to do with researching the cumulative effects of marijuana use came to a conclusion that long-term memory loss was a factor among other things. I don't know about you, but I'd rather train with an NCO who can remember ALL of the battle drills than one that doodles at an O gp.

We are a group of men and women who not only lead by example, but learn from example as well. Charging or giving the boot to users of drugs will serve to reinforce in the minds of young soldiers that we simply won't tolerate their deliberately making themselves less than 100%fit for battle.
 
I don‘t get any of it. If I don‘t agree with all of the policies and traditions of the Masonic Lodge, I don‘t join. If I can‘t abide by the requirements of the Knights of Columbus, I don‘t join. Easy.... To bend the rules to satisfy your own social/moral/ethical standards is wrong. To knowingly circumvent rules that you agreed to, prior to enlisting - is an indication of your character. To whine about the ramifications of getting caught is childish. I want to trust my life, or the lives of my men - with far more sturdier souls than that.
 
From what Foxhound says, it sounds like we are going to be better off without them.
 
Originally posted by muskrat89:
[qb] To bend the rules to satisfy your own social/moral/ethical standards is wrong. [/qb]
I couldn‘t have said it better myself. Furthermore, this same argument applies to the Canadian public as well. It is well known that drug use is against the law, so for people to ignore it and justify their drug use as just being a minor crime that doesn‘t hurt anyone is just a copout. The issue isn‘t how minor the affects of a drug may be, the fact is that it is against the law, end of story.
 
The CF has opportunities for soldiers to undergo drug rehab tng. Our facility here is in North Bay, and from what I‘ve seen here in the few cases of drug use in Petawawa, most are given this opportunity as part of thier counselling etc...
 
Soldiers continuously endure stress and i think for that reason the (usually )minor problems of drug use should be over-looked .Unless traning for or on an operaton taking drugs isnt hurting anyone if you use in moderation ,much like anything else.
You need to be specific with what drugs you are refering to here. I‘m asuming that you‘re talking about marijuana, and to a degree I would agree that a little pot is not a big deal, aside from the fact that they are blatently breaking DND policy.

However if those soldiers do a little bit of narcotics like heroin, cocaine, or barbituates, or some halucinogenics like LSD, or mescaline, or any of the "designer drugs" typically stimulants like ecstacy and methamphetamine, then there could be serious problems.

Just a note here also to people who incesantly argue the flashbacks, decreased short term memory, and pshycotic episodes as a result of smoking marijuana I want to point out that while there is evidence that suggests that at least some (one) of these events may result, it is generally accepted that it happens only after long term chronic use. I can assure you that I know plenty of people from B.C. who have smoked near chronic levels of marijuana for many years and still manage to perform highly stressful and mentally challenging jobs. I have friends who smoked pot throughout law school, med school (this one was casual only though) and engineering programs. I would say that I‘ve met and discussed marijuana with a minimum of 300 people who all have their own backrounds in marijuana use, in addition to what they‘ve learned from the probably hundreds of people that they‘ve talked to.

To get to the point, I‘ve never heard anyone say to me that they‘ve had a hallucinogenic experience, psychotic episode, or any kind of flash back from marijuana use. The only people who have ever indicated to me, or who I could simply tell on my own had suffered any kind of short term memory loss were the absolutely most hardcore users I met. People who smoke pot like its cigarettes, joints before breakfast right through to joints before bed.
I‘m not trying to say its safe, because obviously the damage that eventually does become noticable begins to happen at some point prior to when you can actually identify that the damage is done, but it seems pretty obvious that if someone got high only 2 or 3 times a month, any ill effect suffered would be so insignificant it would probably measure less damage on your brain than simply breathing the polluted air we do every day.

On the flip side, to anyone who‘s pro marijuana use, even for members of the military, you need to either remember or realise right away that marijuana and hash are notorious for turning up laced. I have known many (and I mean many) people who have inadvertently smoked narcotics while smoking a joint. It‘s common practice for a "dealer" to lace bags of low grade marijuana with cocaine or speed to give the user a really strong high and make them belive they are smoking top grade pot. Before you say that it‘s not practical that they would not do that, because the cocaine is expensive, im going to say "trust me, im in the know on this one" and it‘d take time to explain why its profitable.

When I was growing up there was a phenomenon known as "creeper weed", some of you pot heads out there may know the term. Those of you who don‘t, it means when you smoke it you get a good buzz or high, and about 20 minutes later you suddenly discover that you‘re getting more high, and not just a little bit. You get wasted, and it can be really scary if you were already pretty high in the first place.
The thing is, generally a marijuana high will begin to ebb off after about 15-30 minutes, thats why the creeper weed is so peculiar. The answer why that happens has nothing to do with specially grown or modified marijuana, its because after 20 minutes or so, when the pacifying and relaxing effects of the actual marijuana that was in the joint/bowl wear off, the longer lasting effects of whichever substance it was laced with become the dominant effect. So whats really happening is that the induvidual is really coming to feel the effects of smoking narcotics, and thats why "creeper weed" causes intense paranoia 9/10 times.

Before any potheads jump on me and try to dismiss what I‘m saying, I‘m going to say that I know what I‘m talking about. I‘ve seen the process, I‘ve seen the things people lace marijuana with, I‘ve seen people buy laced drugs and disappear off without a clue.

To make this long story end, I‘m going to get back to the point and say that ultimately a soldier smoking pot in his free time could very easily be hurting himself and putting others at risk. The fact is, if you don‘t grow marijuana yourself you really don‘t know whats in it. It‘s not regulated by health inspectors like alcohol is.

These are things I‘ve known people to smoke in a joint, and usually without prior knowledge:
PCP, Cocaine, Methamphetamine, Heroin, psilocybin (magic mushrooms), various prescription and over the counter medicines, and Lysol brand disinfectant spray. The Lysol is know to cause visual hallucinations when applied during the curing process of the marijuana buds.

I would guarantee that for those of you who smoke pot, or "used to smoke pot", that if you ever bought any marijuana from guy on a street corner and not from someone you know who grows it, that you have definately had some contact with laced drugs. It‘s a very common practice. High grade marijuana is very expensive, most kids could not afford it. So they load up the cheap stuff with a little something to give it some extra kick.
 
Originally posted by Infanteer:
[qb] That is a pretty bold statement, ex-Towgunner. Any proof (Freedom to information, DND studies?). I find it hard to believe that 1 in 3 soldiers would lay aside their professionalism in order to get high.

Yes indeed there are other reasons like just to be able to get out of another deployment and this may likely be the case here. Who would really want to serve in a place like Afghanistan? Knowing that you are vulnerable to anything at anytime an adversary can do to inflict terror and casualties, as we are already getting use too.
I don‘t know, but reservists always seem to be willing to volunteer to go over. I think you are not giving enough credit to the professionalism and motivation of our troops.

Soldiers continuously endure stress and i think for that reason the (usually )minor problems of drug use should be over-looked .Unless traning for or on an operaton taking drugs isnt hurting anyone if you use in moderation ,much like anything else.
...and condone illicit substance abuse as an acceptable form of stress relief. You are out to lunch.
If you can‘t trust a soldier to hold his word on drugs, could you trust them with much else? [/qb]
infanteer: I dont agree with that second quote or who posted , my statement says that you will find that about 35% of the people have tried a narcotic substance of some sort in their career. I stand by what I say and have spent enough time in the Regs to know of the problem. Drug use is a problem in our forces. Period. I have served with Pot heads and alcoholics alike, in the end I feel very sorry for these individuals and I would most likely fight with any of them anywhere, they for the most part are good soldiers but with a problem of addiction of some sort. I would still be very proud to serve with them, I would not condem them, I would most likely try to help them to a point where they can help themselves to get out of the problem. Like some sort of Rehab and support. Our forces are to me Number 1 in the world. Short in numbers but very high in spirit and comraderie. Where in the world can you find better soldiers that really give all that they can to help a nation in crisis?
 
Originally posted by Armymedic:
[qb] The CF has opportunities for soldiers to undergo drug rehab tng. Our facility here is in North Bay, and from what I‘ve seen here in the few cases of drug use in Petawawa, most are given this opportunity as part of thier counselling etc... [/qb]
Granted....great program, but you stated only a few? There are alot more out there that need the help also.
 
Originally posted by Foxhound:
[qb] Hmmmm. Wondered when THAT was going to creep in. That, "It's almost legal now, so why not let a grunt have a toke now and then?â ? question.

Paras, if you've read the other thread in this forum, "CFB Valcartier soldiers tested for drug useâ ?, you'll know that I'm uniquely qualified to hold an opinion here, so here's my two cents.

The two cpls. that were charged from my pl. were not what any commander would term "idealâ ? soldiers. They maybe started out just relieving "stressâ ?, but they weren't under any stress that I could see. They hung with a clique of about eight other guys from the bn. who were also charged. I forget exactly how many total were implicated, wasn't my focus at the time. Every ex. we were on, these two would find any excuse to leave the pl. to find others of their stripe. They were rude, and their idea of a good joke was to pull rank and have some poor FNG perform some disgusting or degrading act. They couldn't be counted on to perform ANY task without supervision, unless it was a task where all THEY had to do was supervise. When they got back from Edmonton, they hadn't changed any except that now they thought that their time in jail somehow made them Ãœber-grunts.

Let's not ignore the fact that the CF has good reasons for its policies on drug and alcohol use. All studies that I have heard of that had to do with researching the cumulative effects of marijuana use came to a conclusion that long-term memory loss was a factor among other things. I don't know about you, but I'd rather train with an NCO who can remember ALL of the battle drills than one that doodles at an O gp.

We are a group of men and women who not only lead by example, but learn from example as well. Charging or giving the boot to users of drugs will serve to reinforce in the minds of young soldiers that we simply won't tolerate their deliberately making themselves less than 100%fit for battle. [/qb]
Good opinion, but I still think they deserve some sort of help. ProPatria
 
And taking drugs because of stress is a really weak reason. It‘s like saying, "I shot the guy cause he wanted to knife me!". There are hundreds of other ways of releiving stress. Yes smoking pot is a good one but it‘s illegal and you aren‘t allowed to take any because of good reasons. Yes if someone smokes a joint here and there isn‘t bad. But if people start accepting that, they will take more and abuse it. We give an inch, they take a mile. And it‘s just plain wrong. If you take drugs and don‘t respect your role as a soldier, then you don‘t deserve to get my respect. Plain and simple.
 
Since I obviously caused some confusion and offended some with my first post, I will try to be more concise this time. I wasn‘t trying to slam the VanDoos just pointing out that this is their second run in with the media piranahs. Somalia DID happen in ‘93 and we couldn‘t get rid of it for two years. Medak happened in Sep ‘94. The boys came home 4 weeks later and were swept under the rug because of the fallout from the Airborne scandal. The general public didn‘t have any idea or want to have any idea why our people were in Yugo or what they accomplished. 3 months later (Jan ‘95) the hazing videos hit the news. And the fallout from that has lasted, well, I had someone throw it in my face about a year ago. My issue is not with the 19 caught, any idiot should know, that is a very small percentage. My issue is with the fallout since I‘m sure the media will no doubt make every soldier look like a criminal to the general public. As far as my opinion on whether members should be allowed to use if it becomes legal, definitely not. I have lost too much over the years to other peoples drug habits to ever view them as benign but I don‘t think that this should have been made public. It‘s a military issue let the military deal with it.
 
Marijuana Party pipes up with election platform
CTV.ca News Staff

The federal Marijuana Party has officially rolled out its election campaign platform. Campaigning under the slogan "Let's Roll," the party has high hopes of putting candidates in 100 ridings across Canada.

About 40 will be running in Quebec ridings, with another 25 candidates vying for seats across Ontario. And seven candidates will be on the slate in the Winnipeg area.

The party won't be represented, however, in P.E.I., Newfoundland or the Northwest Territories.

According to Marijuana Party leader Marc-Boris St-Maurice, 35, his team is running on a single issue -- the legalization of marijuana.

But, he says, his party's narrow platform actually covers a broad range of legitimate government concerns, from finance and justice to international relations and agriculture.

"We are a single-issue party but that issue covers finances, social climate, justice, international relations and agriculture," he told reporters on Tuesday.

"There's hardly any ministry that would not be affected. In fact, I think we should have a Ministry of Marijuana at some point."

In a platform published online, the party outlines a number of marijuana-related goals that includes:

demonstrating the social advantages to ending cannabis prohibition;
creating a defence fund for those accused of cannabis-related crimes;
developing legislation to legalize the drug;
ensuring access to medical marijuana; and
pressuring the international community to follow suit.
Mike Foster, the Marijuana Party candidate in Ottawa Centre says he believes that the party has more support than many would like to admit.

"There are more than three million Canadians who smoke (marijuana). I think it's time we all came out of the weed closet and addressed this issue once and for all."

Interestingly, the party does promote one agenda item that's not entirely marijuana-centric. It wants an overhaul of the Canada Elections Act, "to offer solutions to the parliamentary representation deficit."

"We feel we are under the obligation to be critical of any abuses or inequities within our democratic system," the party writes on its website.

"This reform would serve to better interpret election results and distribute power fairly."

When Canadians last went to the polls in 2000, they gave the Marijuana Party 0.5 per cent of the national vote -- more than 66,000 votes.

This year, St-Maurice is planning to run against Paul Martin in the prime minister's Montreal-area riding of LaSalle-Emard.

To help pay for the campaign, party fundraisers are reportedly selling marijuana seeds at a going rate of 10 seeds for $12.

 
The fact that these guy will get votes shows the weakness in universal enfranchisement.

"To permit irresponsible authority is to sow disaster; to hold a man responsible for anything he does not control is to behave with blind idiocy.   The unlimited democracies were unstable because their citizens were not responsible for the fashion in which they exerted their sovereign authority...other than through the tragic logic of history.   The unique "poll tax" that we must pay was unheard of.   No attempt was made to determine whether a voter was socially responsible to the extent of his literally unlimited authority.   If he voted the impossible, the disastrous possible happened instead (emphasis mine) - and responsibility was then forced on him willy-nilly and destroyed both him and his foundationless temple."

Robert Heinlein. Starship Troopers, 183.
 
The fact that these guys will get votes shows the power of democracy and the freedom of will.
 
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