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Bingo.More Hooks. At least another 17. Preferably 34.
Do I think the CA needs some BsV-10 type vehicles yes, but for any significant movement you’re better off with a lot more Hooks.
Bingo.More Hooks. At least another 17. Preferably 34.
How are you going to "remove" a civilian but very large and capable government owned vessel conducting a "research mission" in waters considered "International" by the other side? Not to mention we only have one icebreaker that comes close to matching theirs, if they choose to move in at the just prior to the beginning or just after the end of our arctic season. If China and Russia want to make such a move it will be very similar to some of their other moves. Mould Bay is a obvious choice, being on the edge of the archipelago, some infrastructure including a 4,000' runway and not normally manned.I'd suggest that interdicting or "removing" the support vessels would be much more effective than sending ground troops in BvS10's to conduct some type of assault. Once their support is gone then I think the "Researchers" will fairly quickly require rescue.
Nobody in the world is disputing Canadian sovereignty over Prince Patrick Island. A Russian/Chinese force of "researchers" armed as you suggest with MANPADS and AT weapons backed by para-military Coast Guard vessels seizing Mould Bay would be just as much an Act of War as Soviet paratroopers landing in Colorado a la Red Dawn.How are you going to "remove" a civilian but very large and capable government owned vessel conducting a "research mission" in waters considered "International" by the other side? Not to mention we only have one icebreaker that comes close to matching theirs, if they choose to move in at the just prior to the beginning or just after the end of our arctic season. If China and Russia want to make such a move it will be very similar to some of their other moves. Mould Bay is a obvious choice, being on the edge of the archipelago, some infrastructure including a 4,000' runway and not normally manned.
Right now thanks to Ukraine, I see this scenario as very unlikely. Prior to 2022, it was higher. If Russia wins in Ukraine, I see the possibility of the two countries doing this in a joint op. I don't think either country would try it alone, but the two together could bring a lot of resources to bear and not just military, but political, civilian and international geopolitical games.
Plane crash, satellite, foreign incursion, (from most to less likely). Taking ownership almost demands you physically are able to move about on a regular basis at any time doesn't it?I am not quite sure I understand this thread.
The proposal is to drive vehicles across the tundra in the summer, because why?
Everything that I know about the Arctic says that is a super bad idea. Even for a BV206 type vehicle.
Possession is 9/10ths of the Law.Plane crash, satellite, foreign incursion, (from most to less likely). Taking ownership almost demands you physically are able to move about on a regular basis at any time doesn't it?
Who’s “you lot” in this conversation. Last I checked you were Canadian, and given your age a lot closer to the people who took possession of the arctic than the rest of us.It is truly amazing to me just how easy it is for Canadians to justify doing absolutely nothing north of the treeline. The southern treeline.
You lot bought the rights to Rupert's Land. You argued to take possession of the ice that the Brits, Norwegians and Danes were actively exploring. And once you have it, everyone of you seems to pine for the Turks and Caicos.
Maybe Trudeau is just following on from the French impulse that traded some acres of snow for Martinique and Guadeloupe.
If you don't want to do anything with it why don't you just hand it back free and clear to the Inuit, Dene and Cree?
Who’s “you lot” in this conversation. Last I checked you were Canadian, and given your age a lot closer to the people who took possession of the arctic than the rest of us.
Apparently there are people Up North that have deployed for the long term, that have established far flung posts and learned how to sustain them, that have learned how to accommodate the difficulties and have figured out when anything and everything has value and is worth replacing, or repairing, or just discarding.There are realities to being up north that make long term deployment of ground forces extremely difficult to sustain. The cold will break anything and everything. Attempting large scale overland movement is a fools errand. Establishing far flung posts without being able to secure it is a fools errand.
To Colin’s question, it’d blockade the island and wait a month for the people on it to with draw.
We can offer a lot to make Canada an attractive proposition to the locals. Infrastructure is a big part of that. But locally appreciated and locally appropriate infrastructure. In the south our communities have buses and ambulances and fire trucks and delivery trucks and taxis, all connected by blacktop that we all exploit personally in our own vehicles, bicycles as well as cars. In the north the cost of establishing all that blacktop is cost prohibitive for a small population, but helping them acquire buses, ambulances, fire trucks, delivery trucks and taxis that don't require blacktop is well within our capability and our purse.
Supplying the locals with airplanes, helicopters, boats and ground crawlers to serve and connect the local communities as buses, ambulances, fire trucks, delivery trucks and taxis seems to me to be a good place to start. And that infrastructure could also be used to assist in rapidly moving southern military forces and accommodating them for long term deployments.
Kirkhil, I strongly recommend that you look up and watch all episodes of CBC series titled “High Arctic Haulers”. It’s all been done already.
And who is going to do that - make the decision and take the action?You "remove" them by invoking NATO Article 5 and sending their icebreaker to the bottom of the sea with airstrikes and if their invasion force doesn't surrender you destroy them and any Russian/Chinese forces attempting to assist them.
Hahahaha surely you jest? Making a decision that doesn't involve lining their own pockets? Not bloody likely.And who is going to do that - make the decision and take the action?
That would be a reasonable response, although I don't doubt the willingness of Russia and China to allow their people to suffer till the weather and ice breaks the blockade and large Russian icebreaker relieves them, when our ships are unable to contend with the ice.Who’s “you lot” in this conversation. Last I checked you were Canadian, and given your age a lot closer to the people who took possession of the arctic than the rest of us.
There are realities to being up north that make long term deployment of ground forces extremely difficult to sustain. The cold will break anything and everything. Attempting large scale overland movement is a fools errand. Establishing far flung posts without being able to secure it is a fools errand. To Colin’s question, it’d blockade the island and wait a month for the people on it to with draw.
Take a page out of Chinas book and aggressively use boats to force an armed response.That would be a reasonable response, although I don't doubt the willingness of Russia and China to allow their people to suffer till the weather and ice breaks the blockade and large Russian icebreaker relieves them, when our ships are unable to contend with the ice.
I'm simply responding to your scenario of a Russian/Chinese Coast Guard vessel landing a heavily armed (ATGM's and MANPADS) military force to seize the sovereign territory of a NATO country.So your going to sink an unarmed non-military vessel of a nuclear power? You might, but I highly doubt the politicians of Canada and the US will jump to that solution in the short term and possibly long term. It also does not matter what we or the west thinks, China and Russia have a history of defining what is right/legal in their own terms. Ask the Philippines how much China respect territorial claims.
I'm simply responding to your scenario of a Russian/Chinese Coast Guard vessel landing a heavily armed (ATGM's and MANPADS) military force to seize the sovereign territory of a NATO country.
A Russian Coast Guard vessel is NOT a non-military vessel. The Russian "Coast Guard" is actually the "Coast Guard of the Border Services of the FSB" (i.e. the Russian Federal Security Service - the successor of the KGB). It would be like the United States Coast Guard - a branch of the United States Armed Forces - landing an armed CIA force to seize a Russian town. A clear Act of War. I wonder that the Russian response to that would be? Why would you expect NATO's reaction to be any different?
If NATO did not respond to a Russian military invasion of Canadian territory then NATO would cease to exist as no member nation would be able to trust that the rest of the alliance would come to their aid should Russia seize some of their territory.
And I'm not sure if @Kirkhill 's comment about "doing absolutely nothing above the treeline" was at least in part directed at me in response to this line of conversation but just because I think that a more suitable response to the specific scenario presented doesn't involve primarily CA Arctic forces doesn't mean that I'm not in favour of both Arctic military capability or heavy investment in the North.
I'm on record elsewhere on these forums strongly supporting arctic-capable platforms (like the BvS10) for the CA and have suggested that a CA Light Brigade train to be able to be integrated as the 3rd Brigade for the US 11th Airborne Division in Alaska.
I also strongly favour major investment in the Canadian North. It's just that in my opinion the risk of direct invasion of the Canadian Arctic is extremely low so the bulk of our investment should be on developing the civilian (and dual-use) infrastructure of the North (deep water ports, improved airfields, government services, roads/rail lines, housing, medical services, telecom infrastructure, etc.) that will improve the lives of our Northern residents and in turn unlock the economic growth potential of this vast region.
I just think those kinds of investment (along with some strengthening of our military's Arctic capabilities - including the Rangers) will do more to enforce our sovereignty of the North than a massively increased permanent Arctic military presence to face a pretty unlikely direct military threat.
They will have clearly violated Canada's firearms laws and the full weight of the government would be brought to bear./s"Bear Safety personal" armed with automatic rifles, MG, AT, Manpads, etc