Discussion on Israeli Strategy

[tamouh]

Edward: I agree with your comments, though we're missing the point, if we agree Lebanese government could not disarm Hezbollah prior to the Israeli invasion, then Israel has no right to bomb Lebanon infrastructure. I also agree Israel is surrounded by their enemies who wish to erase it off earth, yet, the Israelis are not doing any better compared to their enemies.

Lets also assume Israel invades Lebanon, reach Beirut, the Syrians drawn into the conflict, Israel annihilate the Syrian army, Israel reaches Damascus.....and then what ? It will change nothing, in fact, it will just make things worse for Israel.

The Arabs governments are not the problem Israel face. The problem Israel has to deal with is the Arabic street, the people, the nations. If Israel occupies area from the Mediterranean to the Euphrates, they'll still be under severe attacks from guerrilla fighters and ordinary people. Therefore, war is not the answer. War for Israel is pretty much to keep the status quo in the region, hence, no peace is possible.

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Wes: I'll just choose to ignore your comments because they're baseless. I believe everyone has the right to express their opinion both on the left and the right. I usually attempt to fair my self in the middle line while I consider your ideology an extreme right propaganda at best.

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a_majoor:

since the government has done nothing to stem the flow of arms from Syria via road and air (hence bombing bridges and the airport),

While true, the reality on the ground is completely different. Lebanon "was" a democracy in progress, as I stated earlier and don't be fooled by the bragging Lebanese about their army, or their armed forces website, the Lebanese army next to doesn't exist. The army is compiled of sectarian groups to ensure each religion has an equal proportion representation in the forces, most equipments obsolete and training is limited to police force scenarios.

As for the border, between Lebanon and Syria it is really quite easy to smuggle things back and forth avoiding all check points. Even the Syrians couldn't prevent the rush of illegally imported goods into Syria mid-1980s.

 

[1feral1]

Wes: I'll just choose to ignore your comments because they're baseless.
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So what about the rockets found in the mosque? How about your views on this?

As for my comments, extremism, or red blooded patriotism? I guess its up to the individual, but if thats the case, I guess the majority on this website are extremists in your eyes.

Regards,

Wes

 

[Kirkhill]

Edward: I agree with your comments, though we're missing the point, if we agree Lebanese government could not disarm Hezbollah prior to the Israeli invasion, then Israel has no right to bomb Lebanon infrastructure.

Tamouh you probably should have stopped at "I agree with your comments".    Then you, Edward and I would have been in accord.

I am unaware of any law that prevents the targeting of inanimate objects.  They can be rebuilt.  And if Lebanon plays its cards right it will probably find its bombed out hill roads replaced with 4 lane highways after this latest unpleasantness.  That seems to be working understanding of how things work these days: from the Marshall Plan to Canadian engineers in Afghanistan replacing a bridge that was destroyed a week earlier in a firefight that killed a Canadian.  Westerners have apparently been taught to play nice, tidy up the mess and put away their toys after they have finished playing.

The attack on infrastructure is understandable, necessary and entirely moral.  I shall be very surprised if somebody turns up a law someplace that calls it illegal.  Destroying dams and water supplies in time of war, even in the middle east, is a tried and true formula geared towards getting the enemy to the table as quickly as possible.

Israel does not face a problem with the Arab street.  It faces a problem with the Arab governments.  Israel, nor any other country, doesn't negotiate with the "street" but with the "street's " agents, its government.  Perhaps the "street" doesn't like its agents or the deals they negotiate.  That is a problem between it and its choice in agents.  Israel can only negotiate with the agents the street supplies.

If Israel doesn't like the deals on offer it doesn't have to accept them.  If the street doesn't like the job their agents are doing and the deals they are not making then perhaps they ought to find other agents to represent them.

Realtors are pretty easy to come by as are lawyers.  Politicians are even easier.

My regards to the "street".

 

[tamouh]

Kirkhill: I love your piece. I think if the 'street' had to choose , they'd have chosen continuous war with no end. That is why I believe Israel has a better chance now of making peace with the governments because sooner or later that whole area will be ran by the people.

Geneva convention prohibits the explicit targetting of civilians and civilian infrastructure, but that is another subject.......

What I'm trying to point here, while I agree that roads,bridges, dams, power plants, and pretty much everything civilians will be caught in any type of war, Israel shouldn't expect the 'street' to be anxious for peace after they've destroyed everything the 'street' would need to survive.

One of the more reasons why I continue saying there is little to no hope in that part of the world! So for the victor goes the spoils!

 

[Kirkhill]

Kirkhill: I love your piece. 

Thank you for the kind thoughts. There will be a Sunday Matinee for the children.  Please remember to tip the doorman on the way out.

I think if the 'street' had to choose , they'd have chosen continuous war with no end.

If that is a true reflection of the "street" then it matters not who the agent is.  The result will be the same.  Perhaps it is time to wish you a joyous war and pray for the civilians.

 

[1feral1]

Tamouh, you are still not commenting on today's rockets in the mosque incident? This would not be the first time weapons have been stashed in one of these places, would it now.

Wes

 

[Roy Harding]

...I also agree Israel is surrounded by their enemies who wish to erase it off earth, yet, the Israelis are not doing any better compared to their enemies....

Funny - I don't recall the Israelis making it a policy to "erase" their enemies "off earth", although I think they may have the means to do so.

Seems to me that Israel is "doing better" compared to their enemies - at the VERY least, morally.

 

[couchcommander]

Ah, no, you are all missing the REAL story. heh.

My girlfriend and I were walking down to the Opa!, and we came across this rather large gathering. It took me a few seconds to clue into the "ISRAEL: WAR CRMININAL" signs, but eventually it became apparent it was a pro-Lebanon rally.

Given that yelling out "Israeli's have a right to exist as well!" would have ended in me getting far more exercise that day than my poor birkenstocks could handle - we ignored it and walked on.

Well, in Opa! is when we really got the inside scoop. The friendly Lebanese owner informed us all that the hizballah actions has simply provided a convenient pretext for an already planned Israeli invasion, the people in his village had told him so... scoop #1

scoop #2... while walking back we noticed that there was a rather large group of rather angry looking, Lebanese flag carrying, men all gathered around an either incredibly large balled (or possibly just not too smart... haven't decided what yet) individual engaged in a "debate" with another gentleman. The Lebanese gentleman's point, and I quote was, "How can you justify what Israel has done? Hizballah captures TWO, just TWO guys, and look at everything they do, all the people they kill!".

So, the real story? Israel was going to invade, this was only a pretext. Even if this isn't true, all they did was capture two soldiers, what's the big deal?

*Edit* The above is satire, based on true events. It does not convey my personal viewpoint.

 

[KevinB]

The kidnapping showed the Israeli's that not only was their populace vulnerable (the rocket attacks) but that detailed operations where being done on their soldiers to attemot to leverage the government.

Since the Lebanese gov't cannot/will not patrol their coountryside to ensure it cannot be used for attacks the onus fell on the IDF.

 

[ArmyRick]

Tamouh, to the victor go the spoils huh? OK fair enough. Maybe Israel should bomb lebanon senselesss until they have absolutely destroyed them.

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

I'd like to add one other facet to this debate and have Tamouh chime in....

If those in Southern Lebanon are there because they support Hezbollah (as witnessed by the elections) in part because they believe in  Hezbollah's declaration of war on Israel and in the long-term plan to exterminate the Jews in general, do the civilians who support them deserve any more consideration than the Nazi population who supported Hitler? 

My answer would be "no".  I would contend that if you're a racist genocidal prick, whether male or female and support violent acts against those that you believe your religion justifies the extermination of, then you are no different than the combatant who fuses the rocket prior to launch....and the fact you voted in a democracy does not in any way validate or legitimize your worldview.

Thoughts?


Matthew. 

 

[tamouh]

Wes: Unfortunate if proved true, yet not an execuse to bomb mosques, churches and other infrastructures.

ArmyRick: Whatever makes you happy, just don't come after to blame the Arabs for suicide bombing!!!

Blackshirt: while true, so is the Israelis with their 4 class citizenens, and supreme beings theories and believe Messiah will come down to wipe out the non-believers.

After all, I liked the post someone made on this forum.....lets just wait and see whose Messiah, Imam, Prophet will come first as it seems everyone is waging their war on that basis of they are the chosen people.

 

[a_majoor]

The Laws of war protect churches, schools and hospitals from military action UNLESS they are being used for military purposes, whereupon they loose their protected status. Hezbollah makes use of this since they are well aware most of the media knows point one, but rarely explain or expand on point two. Using mosques, schools, houses, apartment blocks etc. as bunkers, arsenals and launching sites and ambulances as supply vehicles is both an attempt to hamstring the IDF (and by extension, Western forces who might become involved in the conflict) and as a information war tool against Western public opinion.

Of course Hezbollah thinks nothing of targetting hospitals, schools, synagogues or residential areas, and have modified their rockets by filling the warheads with ball bearings to create a cloud of shrapnel in order to maximize civilian casualties (even though it minimizes the rocket's destructive power against hard targets). If the IDF thought that way, their air force would be using iron bombs and carpet bombing Lebanon, not attacking targets with smart bombs and other PGM's.

Your remarks about Israel is very interesting. All citizens have the right to vote and serve in the IDF, sit as members of Parliament etc. and the religious beliefs about the coming of the Messiah apply to a very small fraction of the population (about the same proportion as Christian fundamentalists who believe the last days are upon us in Canada). The ruling parties are secular and fairly socialist in nature, the religious parties only have power to influence the government through the use of Proportional Representation as the voting mechanism in elections. This is an interesting contrast to the majority of the Arab nations surrounding Israel.......

 

[KevinB]

tamouh - your not directly linked to Hezbollah are you.  A VAST majority of your posts make me believe you are their poster boy.

 

[big bad john]

tamouh - your not directly linked to Hezbollah are you.  A VAST majority of your posts make me believe you are their poster boy.

Temper, Temper, Play nice now!

 

[KevinB]

Simply an honest question  ;D

 

[GO!!!]

Simply an honest question  ;D

No room for honesty here.

I'd still like to hear tamouh's reaction to a mosque being used to store Hizbollah weapons.

I suspect that he will continue to ignore this though, as it does not support his painfully obvious sympathies.

 

[ArmyRick]

tamouh, arab suicide bombers? How about we DON'T BLAME ISRAEL for bombing the daylights out of those who support terrorist?

 

[tamouh]

a_majoor: Israel probably has better democracy than most of the mid-east, yet, they continue an aggressive and racist agenda against their counter part Israeli Arabs and even further to Eastern European Jews who immigrated after 80s:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=293813

Infidel-6 & all those follow ur ideology: I'll leave u gentlemen to enjoy your Neo Con wars against the East and the West until (forsure it must happen one day!) Neo Cons prevail in the face of Evil and bring peace to our world.....and live happily ever after.

What I know is little, what I've learned from here was tremendous and some of the conversations were great. I've no interest in the right nor the left. I'll be on the sidelines watching humanity descend to its final doom (or so they claim this will happen).

c ya around!

 

[GO!!!]

tamouh, arab suicide bombers? How about we DON'T BLAME ISRAEL for bombing the daylights out of those who support terrorist?

Nonsense!

We all know it is Israel's fault that religious zealots convince middle class youth to kill themselves, by creating the "root causes" of terror.

Conveniently, it is Israels fault both when it is attacked and when it attacks, and even if the attack is justified, it will be criticised as "disproportionate"

Where were all of the Lebanese in the streets screeching for peace when Israelis were being killed on buses and in bars by deranged suicide bombers?