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http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=2235354&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312
Is anyone else troubled by the last few lines?
Is anyone else troubled by the last few lines?
Discussion on Israeli Strategy
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Lost_Warrior said:
Not really.
There has been heavy fighting in that area for in excess of two weeks now, and the locals have been warned to leave more than once.
I would contend that;
1) people who stick around for military engagements are probably involved and;
2) In the common manner of the press, they took the quote from the thickest looking guy they could find, and presented it in such a way that it supported the editorial aims of that paper. Sensationalistic quoting, nothing more.
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That’s true, although speaking to a buddy of mine who returned from Lebanon not too long ago, a lot of people have not been heaving to the warnings to leave. The roads are too badly damaged and public transportation is non existent in that part of the country right now, and many are afraid to even step foot outside with all the fighting and artillery dropping.
There are still a lot of people there who are non combatants, so here's hoping the soldiers attitude is an isolated incident.
There are still a lot of people there who are non combatants, so here's hoping the soldiers attitude is an isolated incident.
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Lost_Warrior said:
Absolutely.
Go!! Consider that people who "stick around for military engagements" are, possibly, civilians who live there - and have nowhere else to go. They're just hoping like hell that they, their family, and their house will make it through. I have relatives who did the same thing in WWII in Europe. Just stayed there while the war raged around them.
Whilst I support Israel's strategic direction in this action, I am not so supportive of all their tactics - or at least the tactics which have been attributed to them.
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http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153292016359&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
The thing that most impressed Capt. Yisrael Friedler, commander of A Company in the Golani Brigade's Battalion 51, during the bloody battle in Bint Jbail on Wednesday, was the way the junior commanders conducted themselves after their officers had been hit by Hizbullah gunfire.
"The moment their officers went down," he told The Jerusalem Post Thursday, "the sergeants took their radios and began reporting in and managing the battle, while at the same time taking charge of evacuating the wounded. It was the height of professionalism," he said.
The firefight began early in the morning when two companies, A and C, began advancing down one of Bint Jbail's streets on parallel routes. Contrary to previous reports, Friedler said, the Hizbullah fighters were not lying in ambush. "Both sides were unaware of each other and it was actually one of our soldiers who saw them first and opened fire."
But the Hizbullah men were in upper stories of buildings and had a commanding view of the IDF force. In the initial firing, 30 members of C Company, a third of its total strength, were hit, as was the battalion's deputy commander, Maj. Roi Klein.
Eight soldiers were killed and 22 were wounded in the battle. "It was all so very fast," remembered Friedler, "the shooting, the shouting, cries of the wounded and the warnings over the radio sets."
Most of the fighting took place at extremely short-range, sometimes only a few meters, with both sides using hand grenades and anti-tank missiles.
Friedler's company began laying down supporting fire to enable the remaining soldiers of C Company to evacuate their wounded while continuing to shoot at the enemy. Two additional Golani companies were rushed in to help with the evacuation.
"The real heroism was that of the stretcher-bearers who went in to the killing zone no less than six times to carry the wounded out to the building where we began treating them," said Friedler.
Hours later, IAF Blackhawk helicopters managed to land under heavy fire and fly the wounded to Rambam Medical Center in Haifa.
The commanders decided not to risk helicopters to evacuate the dead; they were carried out under cover of darkness by a company from the Golani's Brigade 12.
Five soldiers from A Company were also wounded in the fighting, including Friedler: A bullet went right through his hand. He continued commanding the force and was only evacuated the next day to hospital, where he underwent surgery.
"The battle began to their advantage. They were in a much better position, but we won and killed at least 20 Hizbullah fighters. None of the soldiers panicked, they were professional throughout, and that's our advantage over Hizbullah," Friedler said.
As part of their standard exercises, Golani soldiers practice scenarios where all the commanders and half of the soldiers are wounded, "but nothing can really prepare you for it when it really happens," he said.
A Company was has been in action for the entire last month, ever since the capture of Cpl. Gilad Shalit at Kerem Shalom on June 25. For two weeks, the company took part in the battalion's offensive against Kassam missile crews near Beit Hanun in the northern Gaza Strip, and they were sent north shortly after the battle against Hizbullah began on July 12.
Friedler will be 27 in a week. He grew up in Jerusalem after emigrating from Brazil at the age of 11. Before his army service he studied at the Ma'aleh Gilboa Yeshiva.
His first child is expected to be born in a month's time. His has spent his entire military career in the Golani, mostly with its elite antitank Orev unit, where he was a team commander and the deputy commander of the unit. He took command of A Company nine months ago.
The thing that most impressed Capt. Yisrael Friedler, commander of A Company in the Golani Brigade's Battalion 51, during the bloody battle in Bint Jbail on Wednesday, was the way the junior commanders conducted themselves after their officers had been hit by Hizbullah gunfire.
"The moment their officers went down," he told The Jerusalem Post Thursday, "the sergeants took their radios and began reporting in and managing the battle, while at the same time taking charge of evacuating the wounded. It was the height of professionalism," he said.
The firefight began early in the morning when two companies, A and C, began advancing down one of Bint Jbail's streets on parallel routes. Contrary to previous reports, Friedler said, the Hizbullah fighters were not lying in ambush. "Both sides were unaware of each other and it was actually one of our soldiers who saw them first and opened fire."
But the Hizbullah men were in upper stories of buildings and had a commanding view of the IDF force. In the initial firing, 30 members of C Company, a third of its total strength, were hit, as was the battalion's deputy commander, Maj. Roi Klein.
Eight soldiers were killed and 22 were wounded in the battle. "It was all so very fast," remembered Friedler, "the shooting, the shouting, cries of the wounded and the warnings over the radio sets."
Most of the fighting took place at extremely short-range, sometimes only a few meters, with both sides using hand grenades and anti-tank missiles.
Friedler's company began laying down supporting fire to enable the remaining soldiers of C Company to evacuate their wounded while continuing to shoot at the enemy. Two additional Golani companies were rushed in to help with the evacuation.
"The real heroism was that of the stretcher-bearers who went in to the killing zone no less than six times to carry the wounded out to the building where we began treating them," said Friedler.
Hours later, IAF Blackhawk helicopters managed to land under heavy fire and fly the wounded to Rambam Medical Center in Haifa.
The commanders decided not to risk helicopters to evacuate the dead; they were carried out under cover of darkness by a company from the Golani's Brigade 12.
Five soldiers from A Company were also wounded in the fighting, including Friedler: A bullet went right through his hand. He continued commanding the force and was only evacuated the next day to hospital, where he underwent surgery.
"The battle began to their advantage. They were in a much better position, but we won and killed at least 20 Hizbullah fighters. None of the soldiers panicked, they were professional throughout, and that's our advantage over Hizbullah," Friedler said.
As part of their standard exercises, Golani soldiers practice scenarios where all the commanders and half of the soldiers are wounded, "but nothing can really prepare you for it when it really happens," he said.
A Company was has been in action for the entire last month, ever since the capture of Cpl. Gilad Shalit at Kerem Shalom on June 25. For two weeks, the company took part in the battalion's offensive against Kassam missile crews near Beit Hanun in the northern Gaza Strip, and they were sent north shortly after the battle against Hizbullah began on July 12.
Friedler will be 27 in a week. He grew up in Jerusalem after emigrating from Brazil at the age of 11. Before his army service he studied at the Ma'aleh Gilboa Yeshiva.
His first child is expected to be born in a month's time. His has spent his entire military career in the Golani, mostly with its elite antitank Orev unit, where he was a team commander and the deputy commander of the unit. He took command of A Company nine months ago.
Wow. I was watching Anderson Cooper 360 last night on CNN, and he showed how easy it was to set up one of these Katusha rockets. You could put one of these things in a backpack and transport it around on a bike. The launching mechanism makes the Taliban equivalent look pretty primative.
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Roy Harding said:
Except in WWII for the most part the players were in uniform. This is not the same deal. I don't buy the "don't have anywhere to go" bit. Grab your crap, kids and kit and walk, bike, hitch north. I'm betting if you are on a road with all your stuff you have a better chance of being ignored by incoming ordinance than to watch as the buildings come down around you. And if there is going to be any humanitarian efforts, it will be in the more secure north.
I didn't buy that line when the hurricane his New Orleans either. Bad things are coming. Beat it.
Roy Harding said:
Then what do you suggest? A door to door canvass?
"Hi, my name is Lyle Herzog, and I'm from the Israeli Terror Cencus Department. Would there be any Hezbollah members within today? No? Do you have any missiles or stockpiled ammunitons here? No? Well, super! Thanks for participating in an ITCD survey. Please put this blue sticker on your door to indicate that we were here. Shalom!"
It is Hezbollah's chosen tactics which require the IDF to do what they are doing.
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Lost_Warrior said:
My point was, Arab, Islamic Terrorist Fractions have been doing that anyway.
Israel does not have to give any Arab Nation additional reason to promote their total Destruction and Demise from the region, it favourably exists, and has, since their conception.
As for the poor Innocent Lebanese, they are just as guilty as the Hezbollah, by reason of association and for supporting and permitting them to establish in their Country. And if you don't think so, you probilly think pigs can fly too.
As "Zipperhead_cop" said, if the bombs are coming , Run don't Walk , where , to your good friends in Syria.
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FastEddy said:
In regard to the Terrorist factions comment. That can be discussed in depth with a lot of finger pointing. Ultimately, my response is, certain groups feel they have a grievance. Until they feel their grievance is being addressed, they will continue to act. *WE* can discuss the offers and counteroffers, but again, unless the parties involved believe the offer is fair, these acts will continue.
A very nebulous comment, but there are so many terrorist/insurgent groups, each with their own goals.
I honestly believe, rhetoric aside, that no Arab or Muslim govt actually believes that the distruction of Israel is possible. It has to strong a military and patron.
Much of the anger towards Israel (in my experience) is based around the perception in the Arab and Muslim community of inhumane treatment of Palestinians and that it can act "above the law".
Whether this perception is true or false would be an entirely different thread.
Hezbollah was formed in '82 as a reaction to Israel occupying southern Lebanon. Lebanon was in turmoil at that point and the IDF had worn out their welcome, as such, it had the support of the Shia community. After the retreat of the IDF and the civil war, it was too powerfull to destroy. Lebanon does not have a powerfull enough military to forcibly disarm Hezbollah, and to try it by force may put Lebanon into a civil war.
So the Lebanese really could not control the creation of Hezbollah, and at this time cannot force then to disarm.
Hezbollah is now heavily involved with community services including Community Centres, Mosques, Hospitals, and government. With all of these tendrils into everyday society, it is very easy to support and/or associate with Hezbollah.
According to what I've read, Lebanon is 40% Shia, 40% Christian and 20% Sunni. Most of the Shia voted for the Hezbollah party, so are the 60+% who did not vote Hezbollah just as guilty as everyone else?
I don't mean to make Hezbollah look like angels, I just want to show that we are dealing with a country with its own problems and dynamics. Making broad statements without trying to understand these dynamics trivializes the issues at hand.
Finally, about the "Run, don't walk" comment.
We are talking about evacuating a large area with people of different problems, remember this country is just recovering from chaos. To put this in terms North Americans can understand, consider the evacuation for hurricane Katrina. This is in a First world nation with undamaged infrastructure around a mostly urban area. Now consider you are talking about a rural area in a country with badly damaged infrastructure.
Other issues I can think of:
old, sick - require special assistance to be moved.
no transportation/gas - to poor to own a vehicle or gas shortage.
Refugee camp - Large mass of people - no mass transportation.
fear.
To be, possibly, killed at home or on the road. Not a decision I could make
Jets 'incinerate' fleeing family
by Jihad Siqlawi in Tyre
July 16, 2006 06:34am
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,19806454-5005961,00.html
Published on Monday, July 24, 2006 by the Guardian / UK
Blasted by a Missile on the Road to Safety
Family ordered to flee were targeted because they were driving minivan
by Suzanne Goldenberg
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0724-02.htm
The Times July 24, 2006
Fleeing civilian vehicles hit by Israeli missiles
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-3-2282992-3,00.html
'Save us,' she screamed as another shell landed
Suzanne Goldenberg in Tibnin, Lebanon
Wednesday July 26, 2006
http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,,329538242-103552,00.html
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
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FastEddy said:
Actually I would argue that Israel has likely saved more Muslim lives than it has taken, it is about the only thing they agree on. Without Israel I suspect that the various countries would have fought some very nasty little wars against each other, just look at the death toll from the Iraq-Iran war, 1.2 million! No Israel would mean that they could focus on their Sunni-Shia feud and go about killing each other off in far greater numbers than they already are.
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FastEddy said:
So I guess by your logic, suicide bombings in downtown Tel Aviv are justified, no? Funny, when the other side uses the same calculus you just used, he is a "dirty savage arab terrorist"....
This thread is rapidly approaching its expiration date. They should give some of you guys a "virtual lebanon" to battle things out with online islamist supporters.
I'm still waiting, after 16 pages, for someone to convince me that Israel will be capable of uprooting an established guerilla movement, especially when you consider that the US has had quite the time dealing with a not-so-established one in Iraq. Remember how well flattening Fallujah worked? I'm all for Israel living peacefully and ending the threat that Hezbollah poses to a peaceful conclusion, but acting tactically and not thinking strategically is not a good way to do so. I will now look for a Sun Tzu quote to put here....
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Infanteer said:
Not going to be me. I don't think you can quash an established guerrilla movement by force.
How about:
If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.
- Sun Tzu
Or was that a rhetorical question?
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Rey said:
This fight has been being fought for thousands of years. Maybe there will always be dissidents, but a decisive victor needs to emerge. In that Israel has been putting up with horrifying crap for decades speaks to the restraint they have shown in trying to appease the world opinion.
Rey said:
Okay, so we agree on that. So what is the point of smashing up against the wall that you know will not be going anywhere. These countries need to grab a big slice of "get over it" and get on with the business of living. Or don't complain about the business of killing. If they are being seduced by the lure of hatred by Iran, then that brings us back to "why are we holding a torch for these people".
Rey said:
So they can still help with intelligence info. Surely they could make a phone call, or post a note on an internet site? If there was a steady stream of information about Hezbollah weapon locations and movements, the people there might get a bit more of a nod, for no other reason than you don't want to blow up your intelligence network. I am fairly confident that some of the strikes we are seeing in the urban areas are as a result of intel developed by contacts that are there. Guided munitions are expensive, and if for no other reason it does not make military sense to bomb out a place that is just some random living tenement.
Rey said:
It isn't a case of guilt. It is a case of complicity. If 60% of the country is against Hezbollah, then it doesn't make sense that they should be running the show. If it is a case of fear of taking action, why should that be an issue for Israel. There will be hundreds of tragic stories out of this, but routing out Hezbollah needs to happen. Nobody else is getting it done.
Rey said:
I think everyone agrees that the whole area is a tangled web of interests, history and ideology. However, I would compare it to when your kid gets gum in their hair. You might try to get it out gently, but ultimately you know you are going to need to take scissors and hack the whole thing out.
Rey said:
First off, anyone who CHOSE to stay behind in New Orleans kind of made their bed then got to sleep in it. Yes, potentially getting your stuff looted is unfortunate, but again that is not a consideration to be weighed. Ones life should take precedence over ones personal belongings.
As for at home or on the road, of course the road is the way to go. Perhaps don't travel in a Hezbollah convoy or drive near missile batteries.
Rey said:
From that article:
It said in a statement that it had targeted the area near Tyre because it was "used as launching grounds for missiles fired by Hezbollah terror organisation at Israel".
"The IDF (Israeli Defence Force) regrets civilian casualties while targeting the missile launching area," it said.
"Responsibility for endangering the civilian population rests on the organisation which operates and launches missiles at Israel from populated civilian areas," the army said.
Rey said:
From that article:
"We put a white flag. We were doing what Israel told us to do," he says. "What more do they want of us?"
What are the odds that Hezbollah have white flags flying on all of their weapon transports right about now?
Rey said:
From that article:
Dr Ahmad Mrowe, director of the Jabal Amel hospital in Tyre, said: “Today is the day of the cars. It has been very bad.”
Would that not suggest that Hezbollah is using civilian transports to maneuver away from the Israeli advance? Again, brutal tactics, but ones that Hezbollah is forcing.
Rey said:
From that article:
transport is at a premium: the fare to Tyre has risen to $100 (£54) per person, or $250 for a car.
Nice that there are always opportunists to price gouge when the need is the worst.
All of those articles have compelling, heart wrenching stories. There is no happy face to paint on a shooting war, and no good will come of a cowardly enemy that uses civilian human shields. Unfortunately for those folks, Israel has had it with the unprovoked attacks on it's civilian population. What about this story?
http://news.netscape.com/viewstory/2006/07/21/hezbollah-attacks-children/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F2006%2FWORLD%2Fmeast%2F07%2F20%2Fnasrallah.interview%2Findex.html&frame=true
(CNN) -- Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah apologized for an attack that killed two Israeli Arab children in northern Israel, saying the youngsters were "martyrs for Palestine."
Nice crass reply. Hezbollah would love to be exacting a civilian casualty toll 10 times higher than Israel, but they just don't have as good a weapons platform. And Israel isn't hiding it's military in with it's civilian population, and it's soldiers are nice and uniformed for easy recognition.
Infanteer said:
But what else are they supposed to do? Hezbollah will never stop coming at them. If Israel pulls out now, certainly it will take them a while to regroup and bomb up. But none the less, they will be back. The ball is rolling. This has to play out.
I would bet the IDF is going to be a lot more successful with it's FIBUA tactics. They are not concerning themselves with the "hearts and minds" aspect which IMO is part of the problem the US is having. Certainly in the long run the PR battle will need to be fought and there will be some bitter-for-life individuals as a result of the conflict.
However, seems that area has been pretty bent at the Jews since there has been written history. Remember, the "turn the other cheek" stuff is from the New Testament.
Rey said:
Don't agree.
Rey said:
I think this one applies. Israel has had a lot of time to plan for this, and is doing what it knows it needs to do. Simple survival of the fittest.
Guh. The drawn out reply-from-hell.
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Infanteer said:
....except Fallujah, despite the massive amount of damage, was never "flattened" - - the US still pulled their punches. I think Grozny is the example you want to use. But in that case, it did a pretty good job of gutting the Chechen insurgency there.
NOTE: I'm not arguing for this tactic; just pointing out some of its parameters.
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Rey said:
Ahemmm.....NO NEED to start another thread.
ITS FALSE.
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