Commissioner Wants TTC Cops Armed [ And What About Private Security?]

[Wils21]

Anyone who doubts that the TTC Special Constables need guns should visit Victoria Park station.  Now, don't just get off the train and run.  That would be cheating.  Stand on the platform for a couple of hours.  This should be enough to change anyones mind.  That neighbourhood is a warzone and so is the subway stop.

 

[Sappo]

Walrus, thats the common misconception about Security Guards... many people think they 'cannot do anything' and just get harrassed.

If I was harrassed, I would ask the person to stop immediatly and leave the premises (verbal tresspass notice) they have no right to harass me.

If they continued, I would (depending on what they are doing and how badly they are doing it) either ask them once more forcefully. Or arrest them on the spot for tresspassing and have the local police deal with them.

And also yes as I have ranted even us lowly Security Guards need more protection than mere words.

 

[Kal]

Walrus, thats the common misconception about Security Guards... many people think they 'cannot do anything' and just get harrassed.

I don't think it is a misconception necessarily.  A lot of security guards are useless.  Mind you, it has a lot to do with the company and what type of guards/officers  they hire and services they provide.  That was the main issue why I got out of my security job.  I couldn't count on a lot of the guys I worked with, let alone trust them with a firearm.  However, there were some switched on guys and I still have friends in the field that have their heads on straight. 

Most certainly any federal or provincial security position should be armed.  Some security companies do offer the service, but their guards/officers have to have their training and skill sets kept up to speed.  I think most companies should have ASP, OC and Taser training, along with mechanical restraints or at the minimum plastic ties and vests rated at least lla and stab resistant.  IMO  That would be a far cry from where I worked that frowned upon black boots but expected you to do 1on1's with the mentally ill, minor personal protection duties and restraining and 'escorting' the violent and belligerent.

 

[Slim]

  IMO  That would be a far cry from where I worked that frowned upon black boots but expected you to do 1on1's with the mentally ill, minor personal protection duties and restraining and 'escorting' the violent and belligerent.

Sounds like a hospital enviorment...

 

[Sappo]

Kal, Yea thats what I forgot to mention....  unless the guard is just useless and doesnt WANT to stop it from happening... in which case I would probably harass him as well, except in the form of company communication

 

[Rumbo]

I think that Security guards are over glamored watch people that don't have the smarts or intelligence to make it as a cop, but to each his own

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

MODERATOR WARNING
Rumbo,
If this is all you came here for you will soon be on the ramp with an open door wondering if you have a chute......

 

[Rumbo]

sorry, meant no disrespect

 

[Lawrence]

#2 If there is danger, you flee.

Now, I don't know about you... but if I see an armed gunman trying to pull ANYTHING while I'm on duty, I am not just going to turn tail and run the other way.... I just couldnt live with myself if I did such a thing. Namely because we are Security and LIFE SAFETY officers, I am there to protect people not run and leave them to the fates. And talking to a few of the people who I secure, they basically say the same thing... In my opinion people see body armour, they know the person means business.

Having being first on scene to several gun calls and more stabbings then I want to count anymore, I can tell you right now that if I see a gun I am out of the area quick.  The first time I was at a gun call the would be shooter was about 15 feet away from me and my partner.  We got behind a car contacted beats(police for our mall) and just waited.  Thankfully the shooters buddies were telling him not to shoot and he quickly ran back to his waiting car and left.  As a Security Officer you do not have the tools to respond to that kind of a situation.  As much as I would love to help everyone I have a obligation to myself to come home alive every shift.  That being said I work in the worlds largest mall, which is over run with gangs and drugs and with 3 night clubs within 200 yards of each other does not help. To the body armor comments, just because you wear body armor does not make or break you. 

 

[Kal]

Sounds like a hospital enviorment...

Winner!!!  You've won the million dollars and by dollars I mean buttons and by buttons I mean nothing... 

I think that Security guards are over glamored watch people that don't have the smarts or intelligence to make it as a cop, but to each his own

What about the guards that are too young or waiting to be hired as cops or the guys still studying in school? 

Having being first on scene to several gun calls and more stabbings then I want to count anymore, I can tell you right now that if I see a gun I am out of the area quick.  The first time I was at a gun call the would be shooter was about 15 feet away from me and my partner.  We got behind a car contacted beats(police for our mall) and just waited.  Thankfully the shooters buddies were telling him not to shoot and he quickly ran back to his waiting car and left.  As a Security Officer you do not have the tools to respond to that kind of a situation.  As much as I would love to help everyone I have a obligation to myself to come home alive every shift.  That being said I work in the worlds largest mall, which is over run with gangs and drugs and with 3 night clubs within 200 yards of each other does not help. To the body armor comments, just because you wear body armor does not make or break you. 

Un-ass the area immediately, I agree, if the threat is higher than that of your training and that of which is not your responsibility.  Getting behind a car is useless cover, by definition it's not.  The engine block is, but it's not very big.  As for body armour, you're right it doesn't make you any better, but in case of a shooting or stabbing, I would rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.  Using proper gloves while handling needles and drug paraphernalia doesn't make you any better at handling them, it just makes it much safer, same as a vest.

 

[Sappo]

first to rumbo:

wow... you must be one of those people that snickers and points at security guards. fact is its a job, people have to do it... i'm sure by the sounds of it you have a very fancy job that everyone envies right? Just because someone is a security guard they are automatically stupid? Wow what a generalization you have there my friend, because we get paid very little money, have alot of responsibility that makes us stupid (I can see that).

Law811:

I agree that it is stupid to hang around a gunfight with no protection or backup, but if I have even the faintest idea that my job might put me NEAR guns I would want protection. Body armour is a tool, just like your mag-lite to see in the dark, body armour prevents nasty holes from forming on your torso.

 

[little ruddiger]

Wow, what happened to the TTC? Well, I guess we all just agree about that and are on to bigger and better things. Security work runs the whole gambit from night watchmen and concierge jobs all the way up to stuff that would make the LAPD think you are nuts. One size does not fit all but tell the security companies that it would cut into profits. "Ross McLeod, you magnificent *******, I read your book!!" ;D

 

[Elfy]

IMO a well equipped guard is a well trained guard. If they have the bare minimum of equipment, then it simply looks like their job is to stand by the door and smile and nod as people enter and exit.

 

[Slim]

I think that Security guards are over glamored watch people that don't have the smarts or intelligence to make it as a cop, but to each his own

I am in the private security industry.

I am a specialist in what I do.

I work in Toronto.

My training is probably on par with (if not exeeding in some areas) the average Toronto Police officer.

I make good money.

I am in the same catagory (according to you Rumbo) as all the other $15.00 an hour guards working out there...

Generalizing is not something you should ever do. Keeping an open mind is always the way to go. That way you can prevent being surprised and publically embarrassed like I'm doing to you right now.

Slim

 

[little ruddiger]

It seems to me that Toronto takes security a little more seriously than other cities in Canada, because for many reasons the citizens realizes they have to. It reminds me of the way that some Canadians look down their nose at the US as an excuse for not looking critically at domestic issues. All Canadian cities have crime problems but the attitude that "at least we are not Toronto" doesn't wash at distracts citzens from the issues in their own communities especially in Ontario. Canadians have to wake-up and realize that real changes need to be made that effect the front-line security staff in a positive way. I may be preaching to the choir here.

While the OACP, CPA and PAO moan about how the vehicles and uniforms are too close to that of police. The real issues of proper pay rates, back-up, comms., protective gear (ie. vests, hatch gloves and even rain coats) get largely ignored. Even many clients don't appreciate how very dangerous and important decent security is on private properties. So while police management attempts to beat security management into submission (which is hard as long as it doesn't affect profit) front-line police and security staff continue to interact on a daily basis with varying degrees of effectiveness. The fact is neither group can operate effectively without the other and this adversarial attitude from the top has to change.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

I have worked both sides of this coin and can feel for the plight of the security guard.  I used to wear a vest when I was a Scarborough Town Center guard, had a big ole mag light and cool leather gloves that I would find any excuse to strap on.  I was there for the original race riots, kicked rapper "Snow" out for being a dink (accused me of picking on him because he was white), used to wade into the middle of fights to grab kids with not much back up.  I made hundreds of arrests and was living the adventure.  And I was being an unsafe idiot. 
Having the vest gave me a false sense of security.  Many fire arm rounds will still potentially kill you from the blunt trauma even if they don't penetrate (which many do) and most knives and pointy things (ice picks) will cut through them like butter. 
Don't forget what you are hired to do.  TTC police are sworn constables and only by policy are they precluded from carrying.  As a security guard you are paid to observe and report.  Thats it.  Maybe your company doesn't want to give you more equipment because they are concerned that you will go cowboy and get into a jack pot.  And if you get hurt, and you are doing something that falls outside of your job definition, watch how fast Workers Comp drops your ass and you have nothing to show for it but a lingering injury that may make you unfit for a real police job. 
It is hard to stand by and be a spectator while criminals are breaking the law right in front of you but unless you have been specifically directed to take action ie) doorman at a bar, it just isn't your job to step in. 

While the OACP, CPA and PAO moan about how the vehicles and uniforms are too close to that of police. The real issues of proper pay rates, back-up, comms., protective gear (ie. vests, hatch gloves and even rain coats) get largely ignored. Even many clients don't appreciate how very dangerous and important decent security is on private properties. So while police management attempts to beat security management into submission (which is hard as long as it doesn't affect profit) front-line police and security staff continue to interact on a daily basis with varying degrees of effectiveness. The fact is neither group can operate effectively without the other and this adversarial attitude from the top has to change.

Yeah, the wanna be uniforms and fake cruisers will seem like a great idea until one of you guys gets waxed by some crack head that is fleeing from an armed robbery and you come wandering up and not realize what just happened.  No doubt it is tough to work your security mojo on the honeys wearing polyester navy blazer and grey pants, but it will keep you a lot safer. 
I'm also pretty sure that facilitating closer working relationships with private security firms is not a priority for most services.  It's only you guys that see it as adversarial.  We kind of don't care what you do, we just don't want to see anyone get hurt.  In the mean time, I'm confident that I can do my job effectively without the full cooperation of the security industry behind me.

 

[3rd Herd]

IMO a well equipped guard is a well trained guard. If they have the bare minimum of equipment, then it simply looks like their job is to stand by the door and smile and nod as people enter and exit.

Your opinion is just the same as the ten people that found that found themselves unemployed in 2004 when I took over a contract for Canada's second largest National Park. It being bad enough that the National Park staff who are being paid tax dollars to this work have been pouting in a corner for the last six years and collecting their salaries because they cannot carry side arms.( Yes in Specific roles they long should have been, example poacher patrols and back country operations).

Along with the duty belts, went the polyester, given the climate and terrain it was a no go from the start. Soft shirts and Hele Hansen cargo pants became the required wear along with mature articulated staff. A bit of planning and liaison work with the two local RCMP detachments( I also worked for one, which helped). The end result by the time I finished was an overall drop of DIPS to zero, Partying became almost non existent and the place returned to what it should be a place of enjoyment for all.

Now my reasoning was based on a simple observation of human characteristics. If you look like your are prepared for violent confrontation chances are some fool is going to take you up on it. Remember the famous quote" the pen is mightier than the sword", well so are careful thought out replies. Training does not mean baton practice, Taser firing etc, it means using your brains and being creative, innovative and adaptive. Those who do can find themselves making a pretty good living these days aside from opening the doors.

Next back to the original thread which has seemed to have been lost. I still cannot under stand the fuss over arming the TTC police. Again the furor created is just another sign that TO has still not joined the 21st century, afterall if the transit police out here in lotus land can now carry guns what is the big deal. Try travelling to most major US cities and ride the subways they have been armed for years, as well as Housing Authorities and several other public employment sectors. In closing again "much to do about nothing".

 

[Slim]

Next back to the original thread which has seemed to have been lost. I still cannot under stand the fuss over arming the TTC police. Again the furor created is just another sign that TO has still not joined the 21st century, afterall if the transit police out here in lotus land can now carry guns what is the big deal. Try travelling to most major US cities and ride the subways they have been armed for years, as well as Housing Authorities and several other public employment sectors. In closing again "much to do about nothing".

I think it has more to do withpublic perseption than anything else. Torontonians are very Liberal (to the everlasting shame of the rest of us) in their outlook and will say/do anything that is anti-establishment. The other problem is the activist/Liberal bunch who hold a lingering power base here in the city. Getting rid of that lot should clear out the trash and make way for sensible security precautions and options for those that have to enforce them.

 

[little ruddiger]

Too bad the post from SLIM that had followed my last is now gone because I think SLIM is my long lost sibling and I couldn't have agreed more, but no matter.

Zipperhead I will tell you a little story; It seems one day that an old retiree working as a security guard alone in a medium size mall received a call for a medical emergency. He showed up to the tenant space ensured the patient was receiving proper first-aid and was off to meet the ambulance. He directed paramedics into the store and showed them the way back out all saving valuable time, as he had done dozens of times before. About a week later our hero shows-up for work feeling quite ill, but being the only security he can't call in sick because that means there will be no one available to do his work. A little later that morning the old guard drops to the floor clutching his chest. Without security to direct emergency services in a timely fashion, to the scene inside the mall, he died. True Story.

Don't tell me that you don't need the assistance of security when it comes to the huge private properties that have sprung up in every urban centre in this country. Security directs police, fire and ambulance to the scene and you should know that. Also when you bring in a Form 1 S.17 MHA who takes over custody, that right the loley security guards. When you pick-up an overdose or drunk and drop them off at an emergency room, because you can't take them to cells anymore for liability issues, who takes over security. 9 times out of 10 who gives police the authority to issue tresspass to property tickets, yet again security. Need I go on?

Just because you acting irresponsibly in security does not automatically mean that all security are ramboes like you apparently were. The wannabe uniforms and cars (as you so respectfully put it) are not a good idea exactly for the reason you mentioned but the amount of time police lobby groups spend on the issue is stupid. Do you really think that people looking for help are going to go running up to a security guard by mistake and when they get there go "damn" and keep running and looking for a cop, not likely. Maybe a better way of doing things is to sit down and say police look like this and security looks like this. Instead of stomping around saying "no bad security, I'm taking away your cargo pants until you think about what you have done!"

By way of example; police car=white, security car=black, police shirt=navy blue, security shirt=grey, police pants/hat stripe=red/grey, security hat/pants stripe=blue.

There problem solved no one will mistake police and security again now the OACP can get back to demanding raises from their boards, while private industry eats their lunch. Oh and by the way I am not a security guard nor is any member of my family but I care about those who are.

 

[J.J]

The problem I see with Security Guards is that they have the belief that they are professional LEO's. I have been "tinned" by more than one security guard who is surprised that they are not offered professional courtesy as a LEO. I do not know if the similar problem exists outside of the Windsor area, but the local Security companies are modelling their uniforms and cars to close to the Police. Windsor Police has a black  unmarked Magnum, that is used for traffic enforcement, a local security company purchases a black Magnum with discreet door emblem's, the SUV's are the same model, the light bars are similar etc. I am not advocating Security Guards be dressed in pink tu tu's, but a standard uniform much differant than the Police is necessary.
Zipperhead Cop is being a bit harsh, but he has some good points. A Security Guard is someone who usually has minimal training with the responsibility of being observant and reporting any crimes or suspicious activities to the Police, not to go rushing in and do a "high risk takedown armed with a 4 D cell mag light". little ruddiger has a good point in that Security Guards should not be working alone or if that is unavoidable have an personal alarm (similar to the "I have fallen and can't get up type) that has a direct monitored link. Sometimes the Security Guard industry is their own worst enemy when they attempt to overstep their bounds and act as a legitimate Law Enforcement agency, if they realized what their arcs are, I would imagine their would be better cooperation and 2 way communication between them and the Police.

Back to the original scheduled thread....there is no doubt TTC Cops need to be armed. It amazes me how these politicians make these judgements when they themselves will not venture out without their armed escorts.