Coming onto two years

[George Wallace]

I do realize that experience, apptitude, and competence do all not always go hand in hand. 

Experience, aptitude and competence should go hand in hand in making a good INT O or a good INT Op.  Their mistakes have fatal consequences.

How do I contradict myself?  Int Op experience is related to the Int O world directly, where as Log O experience is not.

Log O is still CF experience.  Experience that would give a person a good idea of what organizations are and what they are capable of.   No CF experience is just that, and standing on the ground in KAF is not the place for an INT O to initially gain that experience.  The mistakes (s)he can make gaining that experience can be fatal to Cbt Tps.

The failure rate for aspiring INT Ops and INT O is high.  Most don't even make it to the School to start, as they are weeded out on their first Module of training.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Again, 4 years of serving as an Int O would be better experience for a Int O than 4 years of Log O.  Why is this being argued?  Are you REALLY suggesting the best experience for an Int O is being someother other than an Int O?

Mistakes by ANY Officer can be fatal; Int, Log, Inf, Armour, MARS.  No one debated anything differently.

Any Officer trade is CF experience, but using the Log O as an example, what if said Log O's first posting was to MARLANT FLog and they oversaw IT procurement for CFB Halifax and supported unit IAW CFOOs?  I fail to see this '4 years CF experience' benefitting a developing Officer and Int O hopeful in the Int O world.

There is no guaruntee that someone going Log O for 4 years will make them a good Int O, there is no quaruntee that they will have operational experience or even see an Army unit in those 4 years, and there is no quaruntee that they will be authorized or selected for a Occupational Transfer from "trade A" to Int O after 4 years.

Is the failure rate of Int OPs/Os that high?  I honestly had no idea.  Having little insight into the Int world, I am glad that (assumingly) high standards are being enforced though.  I've seen the results of 'quantities' versus 'quality' before and the results are not fun.

 

[George Wallace]

Again, 4 years of serving as an Int O would be better experience for a Int O than 4 years of Log O.  Why is this being argued?  Are you REALLY suggesting the best experience for an Int O is being someother other than an Int O?

:

That is not the argument at all.  The argument is whether or not gaining four years experience is a valid goal prior to going INT O (if possible).  We are arguing whether or not "experience" is relevant.  You are saying it isn't.  We are saying that it is.

Again:

Again, 4 years of serving as an Int O would be better experience for a Int O

Four years with absolutely no previous experience.

than 4 years of Log O.

Four years of experience prior to becoming an INT O. 

Any Officer trade is CF experience, but using the Log O as an example, what if said Log O's first posting was to MARLANT FLog and they oversaw IT procurement for CFB Halifax and supported unit IAW CFOOs?  I fail to see this '4 years CF experience' benefitting a developing Officer and Int O hopeful in the Int O world.

I don't know why not.  They are working in a CF environment, actively engaged with CF organizations, gaining experience in CF operations.

There is no guaruntee that someone going Log O for 4 years will make them a good Int O,

There is no guarantee that they will even be selected DEO INT O, so why take that option away from the person.  The "corporate knowledge" that the Log O would gain, would still put them in better stead than someone straight off the street.

.... there is no quaruntee that they will have operational experience or even see an Army unit in those 4 years,

No there isn't, but they will still become familiar with CF organizations and how various other national militaries would be organized.  However, they may also be deployed and experience COIN operations.

.........and there is no quaruntee that they will be authorized or selected for a Occupational Transfer from "trade A" to Int O after 4 years.

As there are no guarantees that a person off the street may be selected within four years.  Does a person want to wait for a chance at one occupation, and possible failure, or take an option of employment in another occupation and gain experience while striving towards a change later, with much more experience and knowledge under their belt.  Too narrow a view, could lead to great disappointment and delays in advancing in another field.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Perhaps I am not wording my statements properly.  I am saying 4 years experience as an Int O is better than 4 years of being anything other than an Int O, in the development as an Int O.

WRT to DEO positions, if they were a Log O for 4 years, they wouldn't be competing for DEO postions.  They would be competing for OT positions.  That leads me to believe that, if there are DEO Int O positions, that they need to be filled and the Int O CM and SMEs believe an Int O can be developed as a Direct Entry type.  There must also be a need to have a few slots filled, whether it be to low OT numbers, training failures, or trade attrittion?  I can only speculate, but those ideas come to mind.

CF experience of any sort is always a plus, granted, and I am not saying otherwise.

My (limited) understanding is that the DEO #s for Int O are very very low....something else the OP needs to consider.

I think my Monday Morning Brain is misinterpreting your meaning some though George.

 

[eilaw]

Do you really know what Int does? Do you think that Int sits in small rooms with lots and lots of paper, thick smoke and cigars and chat to each other with code? Wearing really baggy or ill fitting suits (well... I guess DEUs count) and peep through a camera and carry a snub nosed revolver in the back of their pants?

Anyways, my point is that although there are some fairly good DEO Int types out there,  the more you know about the CF prior to becoming an Int O the better and more accurately you'll be able to assess the information presented to you when building a report. Part of being an Int O is your ability to role play... no not THAT kind of role play. How well you can think in another's shoes helps allot. Having not been in the CF in another trade or branch severely limits your ability to include experiences from your previous incarnation.

Like I said, there are a few really good ones that haven't been in the CF before... but they are few and far between.

My honest advice is go into Log. Get MOC qualified and then re muster after you've done some time in that MOC. It will give you the experience, the understanding and familiarization with the CF and some of the way it works to help you become a competent Int O. Not good... but competent. Everyone strives to be good, and many become great. Take my advice as you will, but all the best to you.

I think I know what an Int O does. I've talked with an Int NCM at the local Int Plt, read up as much as I can and spoken with friends and acquaintances that are currently or formerly in the CF. As a personal hobby I also keep up with military affairs - current stuff and historical as well as current affairs. Now I'm in no way saying this qualifies me for the job, but I think it gives me a good foundation to build upon, and my academic credentials should that I at least have some competence for researching, and synthesizing and disseminating information. Yes this isn't in a military context, but if accepted, the training should bring me up to standard.

If becoming a Int O through DEO with my current skillset and experience means being bad at my job, then I'm assuming I won't get a offer. If I do get one though, I'm putting my trust in the higher authorities that they believe I have the potential to be a good Int O and to get the opportunity to prove it.

My MCC told me that Int is hard to get into, and if I decide to hold out for an offer, it might never happen. We discussed waiting until April to see if I do get an offer, and if not then to discuss if I should go into Log. There's a point where I'll have to decide, do I keep holding out for an offer in Int or take something that can get me in the door doing something that I also find appealing and then potentially move into Int.

Gene

 

[medaid]

Gene,

  You may THINK you know what an Int O does, but that does not mean you KNOW what one does at all. An Int NCM the great chaps and gals that they are don't know fully what an Int O does, and Int Os at times don't know fully what an Int Op does either. (Okay I'm saying this really losely here guys/gals don't jump on me just yet). If you want to know more about what an Int O does, I would suggest that you talk to both sides of the house Army and Navy to get a 2/3 grasp of what each element does and how they do it.

  I think you're pretty hard headed for wanting this and that's it. This isn't a bad thing, sometimes it's good to stick to one's decision, but there's also a time when you MUST know where to stop. If you really want to know more, I can help. Seriously, despite my pain in the a$$ attitude at times, I'm really just an idiot that's a pain in the a$$  :.

  PM in bound.

Cheers,

MT.

 

[eilaw]

Gene,

   You may THINK you know what an Int O does, but that does not mean you KNOW what one does at all. An Int NCM the great chaps and gals that they are don't know fully what an Int O does, and Int Os at times don't know fully what an Int Op does either. (Okay I'm saying this really losely here guys/gals don't jump on me just yet). If you want to know more about what an Int O does, I would suggest that you talk to both sides of the house Army and Navy to get a 2/3 grasp of what each element does and how they do it.

   I think you're pretty hard headed for wanting this and that's it. This isn't a bad thing, sometimes it's good to stick to one's decision, but there's also a time when you MUST know where to stop. If you really want to know more, I can help. Seriously, despite my pain in the a$$ attitude at times, I'm really just an idiot that's a pain in the a$$  :.

   PM in bound.

Cheers,

MT.

That's very true, I only know as much I can read and find from other people. Nothing will be as good as first hand experience and knowledge. I think part of being my being hard-headed is I don't want to join the CF into a trade I'm not going to be happy with. From what I know, and as I've admitted, it's not a full understanding, Int and Log sound pretty close to the kind of stuff I like to do.

I do want to know more and look forward to hearing it.

Gene

 

[medaid]

I think part of being my being hard-headed is I don't want to join the CF into a trade I'm not going to be happy with.

Dude, that is very true. Don't settle for something you're not interested in. Unfortunately in this case, it may be just what you need to do. Although if the second choice is just as cool as the first choice go for it. I did. My first choice was MedTech at the time I joined and my second choice was *gasp* MPs  ;D

I was happy as heck when the Medical side of the house called me and swore me in. Best day of my life  ;D

 

[eilaw]

Right, a quick update. On my last visit to the recruiting centre, I was told that my Canadian credit and criminal background check have expired and will have to go through another one. Since I passed the first time, I'm hoping the second time around will be just as quick and painless. I haven't been told straight up if my Chinese documentation has been approved or not, but I've been told that their impression is that it's been accepted and vetted.

After two visits a month apart, I was told if I don't hear from them by end of January next year to go back in and see them. That would make the whole process almost 2.5 years just to have my application accepted.

Without getting into a debate on the merits of the screening process, since it has been two years, my  desire to join the CF is starting to wane. Previously I would occupy myself with physical training and finishing school and co-op, but now that school is nearly done, I'm starting to question if joining the CF in my desired trade will ever happen. Given that my first choice trade is already very difficult to get into, I'm starting to have second thoughts if this is actually a viable option for me. At my age, and without long-term stable employment in my resume, finding work that can be considered a career, is becoming more and more difficult so I'm going to have to make some hard choices very soon.

This negativity on my part is having an effect on my training as my motivation to get out has taken a big hit, compounding this is the start of the rainy season on the west coast.

Anyways, I'll wait a little longer and see what develops in the next few months and go from there. I'd like to think I've done as much as I can to make this work, but if it just wasn't meant to be then that's just how things go.

 

[medaid]

This negativity on my part is having an effect on my training as my motivation to get out has taken a big hit, compounding this is the start of the rainy season on the west coast.

EXCUSES! Don't make me come over there!

 

[eilaw]

Quick update, got in touch with the local CFRC and still no word from Ottawa on my status. After some lengthy discussions with a few military friends, I've decided to go Arm instead of Log if I don't get my first choice of Int.

 

[eilaw]

Come March and it will be two and a half years since handing in my application to CFRC Vancouver. Went in today and found out that my file was missing some information, but due to some changes in personnel, my file was left untouched and no one contacted me to fill in the blanks.

While I've passed the ERC, medical and interview, the powers that be are now doing a level 2 security check on me. I was told, for people who have been in Canada for more than five years, that check is done while doing basic training. Since it's only been four years since I've returned to Canada, that check must be done before I'm eligible to be offered a position. That security check may take up to two years, bringing my wait time to a potential four and a half years.

Good news is that the officer handling my case said, because it's coming up to five years since I've returned to Canada, the need to have this done prior to being offered a position will no longer be necessary as they'll just drop this requirement. So at the earliest, I will be cleared within a year.

The officer also jokingly mentioned that my file is as thick as a CF member with ten years of service.

 

[BradCon]

Eliaw,

Oh my your patience is admirable.  As a more recent applicant for an int op position I have been somewhat discouraged by the talk about wait times and other barriers to working in Int. 

I'm just writing to wish you the best, and to give you some support.

Hang in there.

B :cheers:

 

[nickinguelph]

Come March and it will be two and a half years since handing in my application to CFRC Vancouver. Went in today and found out that my file was missing some information, but due to some changes in personnel, my file was left untouched and no one contacted me to fill in the blanks.

I hope it moves faster for you than it has for me, I am now in  year 4 and have finally been merit listed... living outside of the country for 2 years didn't help, and then one set back after another... so I really do feel for you.  Good luck!

 

[eilaw]

I hope it moves faster for you than it has for me, I am now in  year 4 and have finally been merit listed... living outside of the country for 2 years didn't help, and then one set back after another... so I really do feel for you.  Good luck!

I'm catching up to you for wait time. Hopefully things shouldn't take much longer now that I've been back in Canada for over four years and nearing the five year cut off. I'm applying for a two-year programme at BCIT though, need to hedge my bets given how slowly the wheels have been turning. At least for you things have finally come to fruition.

Which country were you in for two years?

 

[nickinguelph]

Which country were you in for two years?

My now wife and I lived in South Korea for 18 months, and then backpacked through South East Asia for 3 months.  I visited alot of the 'questionable' countries, Viet Nam, Cambodia, Laos, China, Sri Lanka...so I am sure the people who were doing my Pre-Sec weren't all that impressed, lol!

 

[eilaw]

Just an update on my status for anyone who is interested.

Over three years now I've been in the application process, but CFRC Vancouver says this year could be it. My file was sent to Ottawa last June and my handler reckons a year at the latest before I pass the pre-security logjam.

Added to the security issues, I'm also concerned about budget cuts and the general economic downturn.

I asked if it would be faster to re-apply given that I've been in Canada for more than five years now and if the pre-security issue is still valid, and I was told that yes it is since it's already in my file and re-applying won't give me a "clean slate".

It's time to get an exercise regimen going again in anticipation something will happen this year. In the meantime, I'm studying journalism and will be done either in a year or two depending on if I aim for a certificate or diploma.

 

[BearPusher]

I definitely have to admire your dedication to keep pursuing your goal. I don't know if I could keep going for that long. Keep it up 

 

[eilaw]

Another quick update on my application status.

I just got an e-mail from, I believe, my third case worker about my file.

The first contact came about a month ago asking for address information and then I had to go in for a signature.

Today I got an e-mail which started off well... that my pre-assessment had come back! Hooray!

A few lines laters, BUT they want to re-do my criminal record check in China. There are about four months in there that are not accounted for, which worries me.

I was previously told that if I return to Canada within six-months, then that doesn't count as living overseas - at the time I was finishing up co-op for school. So I flew back every six months and went down to the CFRC and showed them my passport and they duly photocopied it.

To get that criminal record check from China was extremely difficult and not normally done unless you have good backdoor connections - which luckily one of my Chinese friends had. It involved the Chinese national police who walked me straight to a notary public and told them to get me this piece of paper, by-passing what would have required a visit to every single Public Security Bureau office in each neighbourhood I've lived in. Also, China is run as an administrative bureaucracy - so regardless of the actual laws and rules, it's up to the official on the ground to interpret and apply them as they see fit. And giving a foreigner information like this, and the associated perceived risks, would not have gotten me far. Plus, because of connections required, what my friend had to do for the police contacts means I will never ask for such a favour again.

Hopefully I will be talking to the CFRC later today to clarify, but I think this is it.

So just over three and a half years later, the saga of my application may be coming to an end. During that time I managed to finish off the academic program I was in when I applied and got myself a MA, had a daughter, and started a broadcast journalism program a year ago - and throughout I kept thinking, and kept telling my wife, maybe the CF will let me in this year.

Gene

 

[Barbarossa]

Hey Eilaw my buddy.

I've been told by my recruiter that for trades that require security level clearance 2 that you must have 7 years continual stay in Canada.

How about you? How come they process your file when you only have 4 years here in Canada?  Thanks.