Combined MESSES

[sapper332]

Alright - I'm in...so here's my 2 cents for the kitty....
  The never faltering,, steadfast traditions of old are gone - I think that must be an accepted fact. Units try (at least my Unit does) to bring back the days of old where soldiers hung together both on and off duty in a place called the "JRs" or the "Mess".
  With our current operational tempo, and inability to keep the younger soldiers in past their 1st BE - it seems almost impossible to build traditions with the new "Fire and Forget" soldiers that enter the CF these days.
  The new generations of Canadians (and therefore members of the CF) are the "what can you do for me" and "I want it NOW!" generation. The reality of current CF traditions seem to involve instant messaging, emailing and surfing the 'net.... this is of course in addition to playing on-line against your shackmate 2 doors down - instead of a good game of cards - face to face - sharing a cool beverage in the mess/ ranks.

  I wonder if Mess Dinners of the future will have everyone conversing through Palm Pilots?!?! Would sure be an easy way for the RSM to let you know how many extra you're gonna get if you get up from the table!!!

Cheers all.

 

[aesop081]

   I wonder if Mess Dinners of the future will have everyone conversing through Palm Pilots?!?! Would sure be an easy way for the RSM to let you know how many extra you're gonna get if you get up from the table!!!

Damn that's funny !

CHIMO !

 

[Radop]

Alright - I'm in...so here's my 2 cents for the kitty....
  The never faltering,, steadfast traditions of old are gone - I think that must be an accepted fact. Units try (at least my Unit does) to bring back the days of old where soldiers hung together both on and off duty in a place called the "JRs" or the "Mess".
   With our current operational tempo, and inability to keep the younger soldiers in past their 1st BE - it seems almost impossible to build traditions with the new "Fire and Forget" soldiers that enter the CF these days.
   

The traditions were actually erradicated by political death squads.  Anything that was concidered an initiation was banned.  We have few traditions that we were able to keep.  The JRs in Kingston was a social meeting point for civilians and military but the base commander at one time banned civilians without military escort.  Most of the civis coming were female and attracted the young males to the ranks and kept them there.

The other thing I find difficult to swallow is that we take in thousands of dollars in mess dues every month yet we are not allowed to have parties or bring in acts that exceed bar revenues.  You bring in billy bobs band of misfits to play a gig and you attract 30-40 people to a dance out of 700 members.  When we bring in Great Big Sea, we have hundreds come out (allowed twice in the 11 yrs we have lived in Kingston).  Give the messes more freedom to spend the money they take in and bring events that can compete with bars downtown.  Furthermore, having to pay for part of the shortfall of the officer's mess is not looked upon very well by the JR ranks members.  Our Snr NCOs mess is actually making money. 

Lastly, the fire and forget soldiers makes more sense as a force.  We cannot have a majority of Cpls like we did in the 90s with very few Ptes and schools running one course a year for basic trades training.  It was a waste of resources and man power.  Remusters and a high turn-around of troups (including not resigning soldiers whose performance does not meet expectations) is important to the mess as promotions then have meening both to the member and to his peers.  This would attract people to celebrate promotions.  Now we go off base to celebrate.  If a soldier feels proud to receive a promotion, then they feel they have earned it. 

One question though, when did the tradition change from the members of the mess by a promoted collegue a beer for congratulation to the current were they by the mess membership a beer for a promotion.  This costs the member hundreds of dollars (some of the people have paid as much as $800 for a promotion because it was done before a bosses night or other functions).  Personally, I place a set amount (for my promotion to MCpl, $150 and anyone I gave a ticket to could drink on me until that money was gone) on the bar and limit who drinks on my tab.  Bloggins from base supply who had nothing to do with my promotion doesn't get to drink on my money.  The Ptes and Cpls who helped me get to that rank were rewarded by me through this little jesture.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I think we need to go back to the origins of messes - which was in 19th British colonial stations, mainly India and Canada.

Until the post Crimean War reforms, the British Army in Britain was, essentially, a militia, only the Royal Artillery and Royal Engineers were professional soldiers where promotion, for officers, was on merit and skill.   Commissions in the infantry and cavalry, until the 1860s, were purchased on the (not unsound) theory that the skills and knowledge requirements of an officer were fairly easily mastered through some sort of apprenticeship and loyalty and courage mattered most - loyalty, it was held, was most likely to be strongest in those who had the most to lose: the richer classes - thus purchased commissions made good sense.

Officers, in particular, were almost visitors to their units - showing up two or three times a week, perhaps.   They did not have messes in London or in the counties - officers lived and dined and entertained in their homes or in clubs or eating houses.   (When I was in London we used to dine, regularly, at a lovely old pub/restaurant in Belgravia which was the 'mess' of sorts for the regiments of foot guards in Wellington's army.)   Soldiers and sergeants (with wives and children), too, dined in barracks but took their entertainment in the local pubs and music halls.

Things were different in the colonies - much different in India, somewhat different in Canada.

In India it was felt necessary to recreate a little 'slice' of Britain for the British officers and their families and the officer' mess was born - filling then, as it did until latein the 20th century three functions:

"¢ A home for the living in officers;

"¢ A club for all the officers; and

"¢ The social centre of the unit - where the commanding officer could entertain, officially.

Similar, less elaborate facilities existed for sergeants and soldiers, too.

Canada was a bit different - in the few important garrisons (Halifax, Quebec and Kingston) there was some familiar civil society.   Those who have visited Kingston may have noted that the Mess at Fort Henry was small - that's because it was home for only the few RA and RE officers.   The officers of the various regiments which garrisoned the fort lived downtown - there was (I hope still is) a row of early 19th century houses down near the harbour - right near the Holiday Inn (if memory serves) and that was where some of the officers lived.

By the late 19th century many of the colonial customs had been brought home as the Indian Army set the example for a new, professional British Army.   A professional, career officer corps meant that fewer aristocrats were in the ranks but the Army still desired that officers should be and act as gentlemen - the Indian Army idea of officers' messes helped middle class men to affect upper class airs.

In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, as the Canadian Army was formed, grew, contracted and grew again it was logical to adopt the existing British customs and traditions, including the increasingly elaborate officers' messes - reflecting late Victorian and Edwardian social mores.   That stayed in effect until, about, the 1970s.

In the '60s we made a sharp course correction and it was decided that what we really wanted was a mature, married, middle class and largely urban army - a mistake, in my personal opinion but that and a dollar will get a cheap cup of coffee.   The social rules and regulations which, for example, prohibited marriage for officers until they were 25 years old, required single officers and men to live in barracks, and subsidized clubs and messes, were scrapped; a heavily armed civil service was the new model military for Canada.

The whole thing was best summed up by a recruiting poster which showed - honest to gawd - a young officer, carrying a briefcase, stepping off an executive jet; that was what 'they' (whoever they were) wanted our army to be.   It isn't surprising that ideas and ideals like regimental traditions and bonding were harder and harder to maintain.   Changes in the NPF philosophy and necessary cost cutting also made it harder and harder to justify retaining a row of individual regimental messes in places like Petawawa and Gagetown - they were in trouble as early as the end of the '60s.

I agree with those who note that we are changing with the times ... I just wanted to remind you that we changed into the 'system' we are abandoning.

 

[pbi]

ROJ: Excellent post. Quite the finest summation of Mess development that I have seen.

The whole thing was best summed up by a recruiting poster which showed â “ honest to gawd â “ a young officer, carrying a briefcase, stepping off an executive jet; that was what 'they' (whoever they were) wanted our army to be.

Too bloody right: what a sickening display that was. When you sell military service as a "job", don't be surprised if you get "workers" instead of "soldiers". Don't get me started......

Cheers

 

[Steel Badger]

To back up PBI with an example from the public sector..

A while back the friendly Ontario NDP goverment of the day de-layered and "de-militarized" the Ontario Correction Service.

Corporals, Sergeants, Lieutenants and Captains were are all replaced by some flavour of "manager"....
And the biggest problem was that it wasn't the terms alone that changed....but the mind-set and job culture / professionalism of the leadership "class" was changed due to the change in the upper management mindset.....

In the interest of delayering etc, the old system of flights and squads were broken up, and left us with the present mess...where there is little cohesion possible...just random assortments of people who fill slots on the schedule the same way the inmate clientele fill cell bunks....

The management culture is such that "Lead from behind" is the battle cry...or more properly "Manage from the Lounge" ....The attitude of "Not my job" and "WHO ME? Its not MY job to set the standard." is rife.

While they as a group compare themselves in importance to the commissioned officers of the CF......They possess none of the qualities as a group that are demonstated on a daily basis by leaders of all calibres in the CF.
Indeed, the very things that are the "Holy Writ" of Military Leadership :

Know your troops and promote their welfare...
Take responsibility for your actions and
Lead from the front....

Have been long eradicated from the managerial culture.....

Please note that this is NOT an attempt to take a cheap shot at ever one of our OM's (Operational Managers)/ There are many excellent ones in the system....but they would have been good "leaders" in any field.

Our systems does not prepare our managers to lead in what is very often a volitile and dangerous environment.
This is entirely due to the imposed change in mindset from the military mindset of old corrections (Created in its modern form largely by vets of WW1 and 2) to the case-management, business oriented minset of our present "corporate" system.

I have often been criticised negatively for prefering the terms current in the old Canadian Army, RCAF and RCN, buit what many of those who feel that "a name is not important" do not realize...ios that terms CAN change how we think and view our jobs......and indeed our lives......


Soldiers in training used to be Candiates...who had to prove their abilities in order to pass as trained soldiers....Now they are considered trainees, and are to be trained even if, after exhausting effort, they cannot meet the standard...the important change in my view placing the complete and utter onus of the staff to make a soldier meet the standard....to the extent that the recruiting phase is now the selection process for the military and not the GMT / BMQ / SFN course.......


In short, mindsets can have enourmous effect on how things actually work (Im not a NCO as  Corporal...I'm just a senior Private)...and terms are a reflection of that......
(Please not that I am NOT arguing

 

[Steel Badger]

Sorry all for petering out in mid-sentance....

Am posting at work, and have had to postpone completion to deal with a situation.

More to follow

 

[DaveK]

; a heavily armed civil service was the new model military for Canada.

You've hit the nail on the head there.

 

[Spr.Earl]

Agreed combined messes are a bean counters way of saving money. All three messes should   be on there own. Even combined dining facilities are  not proper. Feed everyone the same but in different places. The only acceptions to the above are in the field or in very small dets.   In larger bases like Petawawa   I see   no need to feed the three groups in the same hall.

Sorry Ex I don't buy that one.(Bean Counters)
One can make a Mess out of a Rat hole if need be.

Case in point was in Corolici were we Engineers cleaned out the area between our ISO's and C.E. and made a great barbie area with a hot tub,fire pit,all scrounged even the flowers we planted were from seeds the mothers of some of the guys sent us.Even though we could not drink it was a great little spot to relax and shoot the breeze.
After every one had seen what we had done it was a scrounge athon,the 2nd Pats made their own so did REME etc.Yet when we arrived there was no out door relaxation areas.

 

[043]

Closed Coralici in 2000.............was a great place! And the best of all, we are isolated from the rest of the camp!

Chimo!

 

[Spr.Earl]

So what did you do with my Hot Tub?
Yup I was the one who scrounged the tank from Murry Johnson and Gord Day-Holliway saying "He sees nothing" as I'm stuffing it into the back of a LS CP.
I asked Merry if he had a condemned tank and voila "ask and yee shall receive"and it all went from there.
You are right we did have a very relaxing area but a lot of hard work went into making it just that.
Were all the signitures still on the wall?
As we were Roto 0 just before we left we all signed the wall.

 

[043]

I thought 2 CER did Roto 0............the Surge...........no?

 

[Spr.Earl]

1 CER,we did the transition from IFOR to SFOR after 5 left and what a mess they left. :
Danny Hartford was in charge of the surge.

 

[043]

Ack!!!!!!!!

Got any posting rumours? I hear Ed Ingleby is getting his CWO's and heading to Cold Lake.

 

[Pte.Gunning]

I share a mess with Kocr's and med's so get use to it its how it is theres days

 

[X Royal]

Sorry Ex I don't buy that one.(Bean Counters)
One can make a Mess out of a Rat hole if need be.

Case in point was in Corolici were we Engineers cleaned out the area between our ISO's and C.E. and made a great barbie area with a hot tub,fire pit,all scrounged even the flowers we planted were from seeds the mothers of some of the guys sent us.Even though we could not drink it was a great little spot to relax and shoot the breeze.
After every one had seen what we had done it was a scrounge athon,the 2nd Pats made their own so did REME etc.Yet when we arrived there was no out door relaxation areas.

Spr.Earl if you check out my quote you will see I said except in the field. I consider overseas operations the same as in the field in regards to this subject. My comments were in respect to our messes on our bases in Canada & and at our reserve Armouries. I stand  by my earlier comments.

Best Wishes

 

[X Royal]

I share a mess with Kocr's and med's so get use to it its how it is theres days

Pte. Gunning the original point of this thread was not different units sharing a mess but combining the officers, snr nco's and junior ranks messes or combining the officers and snr nco's messes.

 

[Spr.Earl]

Ack!!!!!!!!

Got any posting rumours? I hear Ed Ingleby is getting his CWO's and heading to Cold Lake.

Don't know the man but he will end up in PLER. as CWO Lacheritie (Spelling) is slated to be the RSM of 1 CER this summer and as for Dan I have heard nothing and those Engineers with 4 AES, two are posted to 1 CER this July/Aug.
Thats all I've heard.

 

[Spr.Earl]

X Royal,received and understood.
No offence meant.

 

[X Royal]

None taken.

Best Wishes