CH-148 Cyclone Progress

[beenthere]

This is starting to smell bad. Very bad. We're now funding the development of new technology rather than buying helicopters.

 

[Haletown]

The article in the Globe doesn't really say much. 


The big issue is that one side - the Government, has "gone public" . . .  which means that the negotiations have gone very sour and the tactics used have totally changed.  Saving face is now part of the deal.

Too bad they couldn't have settled quietly.  I'd bet it's going to get messy.

 

[CharlieCF]

Thank goodness the government is finally saying something.  I love Brousseu's quote of the "contractors claimed reasons for the delays".  I think that finally truth is coming out.  Sikorsky has been saving face for a very long time now, but that was a ticking time bomb.  Can only hold up a front of denial for so long.  I wonder how these delays are going to affect the U.S. CSAR competition considering that the platform they can't deliver to the Canadian government is the same one that they are proposing in this competition.  I would love to hear Sikorsky's "claimed" reasons for the delay, or should I say the true reasons.

 

[Strike]

"It's a good time to be MH!"

How long have people been saying that?  :

 

[PinkPanther]

Negatron.  Until we are told otherwise, we still need to generate aircrew to fly the Sea King, since she'll be gleefully galavanting about the heavens until well after the new bird arrives.

Another group of four pipes are slated to start the OTU around the Jul / Aug timeframe, around the time my course should be finished.  In addition, one guy just got posted to 423 Sqn off the most recent BHS course, probably looking at a Jan 09 start.

And that guy is me! Just here in MJ at the Glass Palace waiting for my HHT....  so I'm catching up on all the rumors!

 

[WrenchBender]

"It's a good time to be MH!"

How long have people been saying that?   :

Ever since the first "Sea King Replacement" program stood up in 1977.

I arrived in Shearwater as a young wide eyed Pte in Jan 1980 and was told, don't worry something new is coming soon. This year we will celebrate 45 years of the 'Pig serving Canadian Naval Aviation.

WrenchBender
"We don't care,
We're Naval Air"

 

[BEN 621]

hmmmmm... couldn't have seen these problems coming with a new helicopter as opposed to an off-the-shelf model. What are the odds EH would jump with the EH-101 in if the Sikorsky contract is canned? Might be a common sense move to bring some commonality back into the picture.

 

[Haletown]

I'm going to keep my powder dry here for awhile until we find out what is going on.  The Gov't side has leaked to teh press - probably as a negotiating tactic.

Let's find out why the cost over runs/schedule delays are happening.  Step 1 is to review the Engineering Change Order Record and see what thay says. Then look at the Contracts Letter Log to see which side has been responding promptly and which side has agreed to do what, for how much & by when.

We haven't heard from Sikorsky yet so let's just wait for the details.  This wouldn't be the first time that a PMO has gone sideways and the ass covering plan is to blame the contractor.

This is likely negotiating . .  . I'd doubt the contract would be canceled for a dispute that amounts to 10% of the overall contract value. Time for both parties to bend a little and get the deal back on track.

We need these choppers. 

 

[geo]

hmmmmm... couldn't have seen these problems coming with a new helicopter as opposed to an off-the-shelf model. What are the odds EH would jump with the EH-101 in if the Sikorsky contract is canned? Might be a common sense move to bring some commonality back into the picture.

True, EH would probably jump at the chance to back in here..... BUT, there is the issue of the various problems we've had with the Cormorant AND the matter of that little $$$ hunk of change that was dropped when we cancelled on the 1st go around.

 

[Haletown]

So hints today in the paper that the issue is performance related, they might need more powerful engines or a five bladed rotor instead of the current four.

Interesting . . . did Sikorsky goof on the design & they are overweight ?  Is the current engine pack not delivering as promised? Is the mission equipment coming in heavy ?  Have Gov't instigated Engineering Change Orders caused the  performance gap ?

Quite the mystery and no answers yet.  Must be some MSM journalist out there in Disney on the Rideau with contacts in the PMO.

The answer will come out eventually, I just wanna skip to the last page of the book right now  and find out what has happened  ;D

 

[MrWhyt]

I wonder how these delays are going to affect the U.S. CSAR competition considering that the platform they can't deliver to the Canadian government is the same one that they are proposing in this competition

A version of the Chinook already won that competition, though of course the losers have raised objections and they might re-open it.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Government talking fairly tough; pretty high stakes standoff, in which there sure don't seem to be any easy or very good results.:

Ottawa refuses to pay extra for helicopters
Sikorsky must live up to $5-billion contract, Public Works Minister says
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080501.CHOPPERS01//TPStory/National

The Harper government refused yesterday to fork over any extra cash to Sikorsky Inc., which has asked for hundreds of millions in additional funds to deliver promised helicopters to the Canadian Forces.

Issuing a warning that applies to all federal suppliers, Public Works Minister Michael Fortier said Sikorsky has to live up to its $5-billion contracts to provide 28 Cyclone helicopters to replace Canada's 40-year-old Sea Kings.

"When the government signs a deal with a supplier for a specific good at price X, that's the price the government should pay for that good," said Mr. Fortier, a lawyer and former banker.

"Where I come from, a price is not an approximation, it's not an estimate. ... In this case, the price was set at contract signing."..

...Mr. Fortier said the U.S.-based firm has to find a way to meet its contract. If that doesn't happen, he made a thinly veiled threat to cancel the deal and find another way to replace the Sea Kings, which are nearing the end of their life cycle.

"I gave clear direction to my deputy minister that he was to try and break the logjam and find a solution, but at the same time, we are working, as we should be, on alternative solutions if we can't come to an agreement with the supplier [emphasis added]," Mr. Fortier said in an interview...

Government officials have been told that the prototypes for the Cyclones are struggling to reach key requirements set out by National Defence, such as conducting a typical anti-submarine mission in two hours and 50 minutes.

There is speculation in the aircraft industry that Sikorsky wants to provide the Canadian Forces with a helicopter that has a more powerful engine, a bigger gearbox and a fifth rotor, which would allow it to meet all requirements.

However, such a helicopter would be more costly than the original four-bladed version proposed by Sikorsky...

MacKay won’t axe Cyclone deal — yet
Delays, cost overruns put replacement project in jeopardy
http://thechronicleherald.ca/NovaScotia/1053191.html

...
The military "started getting vague signals" from Sikorsky last fall about delays in delivery, Mr. MacKay said.

"We’ve now had one major sit-down with Sikorsky to hash out some of the potential problems here," he said...

Mr. MacKay said he’s worried further delays could cost the military pilots.

"Am I concerned? Absolutely," he said. "Am I concerned that we’ve, in fact, already lost qualified people because of the delays? Of course I am. I’m very concerned."

Any more bad news could be devastating for the "fragile" Sea King community, said Larry McWha, a retired colonel who used to fly the helicopters.

He’s heard from people who are still in uniform that some air force personnel are considering leaving the military due to the delays...

Mark
Ottawa

 

[KingKikapu]

If the delay is true, how on earth do they plan to train the next generation operators?  I assume that's getting pushed back as well, and in the meantime, we continue to train people for a system that is only a few quick skips away from the decomissioned junkpile?

 

[hippie]

A version of the Chinook already won that competition, though of course the losers have raised objections and they might re-open it.

It already has been reopened.  Just do a google search to find out the latest news on it.  Chinook one the first round, but as you say, after objections from the other competitors, it was reopened.  I've seen it called CSAR v2.0

If the USAF went for the HH-92, it would bode well for us methinks.

 

[Haletown]

DID had an update last week.

Said the H-92 might be in 2nd place.

Not shot of our SAR 101

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/gao-re-csarx-recompete-the-contract-03082/

 

[jzaidi1]

Wow,

I must be out to lunch.  I thought the CH-149 Cormorant was supposed to replace the Sea King.  Can they not land on ships?

J

 

[MarkOttawa]

If we're desperate would there be any argument for buying Sikorsky S-70B Seahawks?
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/seahawk/
http://www.sfu.ca/casr/bg-helo-s70.htm

The aircraft was considered for the maritime helicopter for a while in the 90s after the EH-101 contract was cancelled:
http://dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collection-R/LoPBdP/CIR/943-e.htm#2.%20Shipborne

Indeed the Seahawk was initially thought of for the competition the EH-101 won in 1987:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CH-124_Sea_King

...Three contenders were singled out as possible replacement for the Sea King: Sikorsky's S-70 SeaHawk (called the SH-60 Seahawk in the US Navy), Aérospatiale’s AS332F Super Puma and finally, AgustaWestland's new EH-101, of which the latter was purposely designed to be a Sea King replacement[8]

However, in a surprise move, Sikorsky then withdrew from the contest, the reason being that the SeaHawk was seen by the CF to be too small...

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Haletown]

Mark, you must be psychic about an alternate to the Superhawk

DID posted this a few minutes ago.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/mh-60rs-the-usas-new-naval-workhorse-helicopters-04435/

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

If there's a dispute with Sikorsky, I'm not so sure another of their products would be a good idea.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Haletown: "Psychic":  some knowledge and good at Googling ;D!

More on new USN Seahawks here:
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/mh60r-seahawk-upgrade-enters-opeval-0509/

If good enough for them...?

Mark
Ottawa