CF Members and time alloted for PT

[Sigger]

EDIT: Changed my mind.  Not worth the debate.

Good choice.

 

[jwtg]

Yeah...when someone's profile is worth more than the content of their posts, there isn't much hope for a guy like me debating a CWO.

Nevermind that his words are dictionary-definition of condescending.
Sure, most people who have trouble probably fit into the category he described, and it is hard to feel sorry for them.
Next time I see someone who has a hard time staying in shape despite their best efforts (and yes, there are people who are not naturally inclined to physical fitness) busting their ass to pass the EXPRES test, I won't rub it in their faces that I think the minimum standards are easy to attain. 
I'll congratulate them on working harder than I ever have to just to meet those minimum standards- I'll leave the condescending remarks about their ease to guys like Haggis.


Yeah, you baited me and I bit.  I'm sure the condescending responses are incoming.

 

[Container]

I dont think anyone hear is disrespecting people who are busting their asses and having a hard time meeting the minimum. The problem, obviously, with those people is the lifestyle of waiting until two months before their PT assessment to hit the gym hard. That doesn't produce someone who has a fitness mindset, and for ten months of the year you have an unfit service person.

So I dont particularly care if they know the minimums are easy to attain. I do beleive they need to be that way though- at least moderately easy, because as CDN Aviator pointed out- not every position is conducive to, nor requires, a ridiculous level of fitness. Anyways.....im thinking about most of the guys I recall who always seemed like they had a hard time with their test and for most of the year you would never find them working out.

 

[armyvern]

Yeah...when someone's profile is worth more than the content of their posts, there isn't much hope for a guy like me debating a CWO.

Nevermind that his words are dictionary-definition of condescending.
Sure, most people who have trouble probably fit into the category he described, and it is hard to feel sorry for them.
Next time I see someone who has a hard time staying in shape despite their best efforts (and yes, there are people who are not naturally inclined to physical fitness) busting their ass to pass the EXPRES test, I won't rub it in their faces that I think the minimum standards are easy to attain. 
I'll congratulate them on working harder than I ever have to just to meet those minimum standards- I'll leave the condescending remarks about their ease to guys like Haggis.


Yeah, you baited me and I bit.  I'm sure the condescending responses are incoming.

No one baited you; I actually agree with you that the average Canadian would find the XPress test hard these days. However, once one swears his oath and enters the CF, one is no longer expected to perform in an average manner. The CF's MINIMUM fitness standard is the CF XPress test --- and a mere hour a week of "approved time for PT" would result in one 'merely' passing it and many would achieve exempt status because they also tend to live healthy lifestyles without visiting their Unit canteen every break and lunch hour and stuffing thier faces with chips etc.

If one can not manage to do that, then one should put their OWN extra effort into passing that test; they do get paid to do their jobs --- at the very minimum --- and passing that test is one of those minimums. Don't like it? Don't let the front gate knock your ass on the way out.

He may be a CWO, but his post was exactly correct and exactly bang on; that is exactly why he is where he is and has achieved the rank he has. Funny that eh?

 

[Halifax Tar]

I think were all forgetting that no matter what fitness test the CF puts out we are always going to have to have a minimum standard.

You have to have a bar from which to judge, a line in the sand if you will.

And no matter where we set that bar the middle 1/3'd will only strive to accomplish the minimum.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Yeah...when someone's profile is worth more than the content of their posts, there isn't much hope for a guy like me debating a CWO.

Nevermind that his words are dictionary-definition of condescending.
Sure, most people who have trouble probably fit into the category he described, and it is hard to feel sorry for them.
Next time I see someone who has a hard time staying in shape despite their best efforts (and yes, there are people who are not naturally inclined to physical fitness) busting their ass to pass the EXPRES test, I won't rub it in their faces that I think the minimum standards are easy to attain. 
I'll congratulate them on working harder than I ever have to just to meet those minimum standards- I'll leave the condescending remarks about their ease to guys like Haggis.


Yeah, you baited me and I bit.  I'm sure the condescending responses are incoming.

The profile has nothing to do with it. You started the mud slinging. Expect to get some on yourself.

Before you cross the trolling line, as your last post is close to, I suggest you just take the advice and move on.

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[PMedMoe]

Okay.  Normally I stay out of these PT threads but I have to reply.  There probably are some people who struggle with PT tests, even the "minimum" standard of the CF ExPres test.  Personally, I struggle with the BFT and it matters not what kind of shape I am in.  The ExPres test, I have to say, is not difficult (at least for a female of my age, as I keep being reminded  :).  I haven't done serious PT for almost three years and still got an exempt on the ExPres.  The BFT is another matter for me.  It's difficult no matter what shape I'm in.    :-\

 

[armyvern]

The BFT is another matter for me.  It's difficult no matter what shape I'm in.    :-\

That's because you're 5 foot diddly squat and weigh a whopping 95 pounds (bitch); but you manage to pass it anyway carrying 1/2 your body weigh -- good on 'ya. 

 

[Pusser]

Okay.  Normally I stay out of these PT threads but I have to reply.  There probably are some people who struggle with PT tests, even the "minimum" standard of the CF ExPres test.  Personally, I struggle with the BFT and it matters not what kind of shape I am in.  The ExPres test, I have to say, is not difficult (at least for a female of my age, as I keep being reminded  :).  I haven't done serious PT for almost three years and still got an exempt on the ExPres.  The BFT is another matter for me.  It's difficult no matter what shape I'm in.    :-\

I have the opposite problem.  I cycle to and from work on a regular basis (13 km each way) at a pace that gets my heart rate into the target zone.  I also work out regularly with weights.  I am by no means a couch potato and I consider myself reasonably fit, yet I have difficulty with the Expres test and have even suffered the humiliation of failing it.  And yes, it is humiliating for a senior leader in the CF to fail a basic fitness test (at least it should be).  The problem is that the Expres Test is best suited for long-legged track stars.  Us short-legged rugby players have real difficulty with it.  I simply cannot move fast enough to get to the exempt level on the shuttle run.  I can carry weights big enough to crush the average marathoner for long distances, but I can't keep up with him at speed.

What I find frustrating though, is the intransigence of the testing regime that cannot differentiate between someone who has a bad day and someone who is genuinely unfit.  There is a huge difference between the guy who stumbles and trips during the run and the guy who falls down gasping and wheezing, yet the response is the same: come back in three months and do it again.  I even had one subordinate who had already achieved exempt on the run, yet because of a slight adjustment of his hand position during the push-ups, he failed the whole test!  Why could he not have simply started the push-ups again?

Another frustration is why is only the Army allowed to do the BFT on a regular basis?  If it truly is the ultimate fitness test (recognized by granting extra PER points for completion), why is it not open to everyone?  To me, the BFT is a walk in the park (and yes, I have actually had a chance to do it, so this is not speculation).

Frankly, the Expres Test sucks, yet were stuck with it.  I find it ironic that us big guys (short legs notwithstanding) are prone to do poorly on the Express Test, yet who are the ones that always end up carrying the @#$%! radio?

 

[jwtg]

...The problem is that the Expres Test is best suited for long-legged track stars.  Us short-legged rugby players have real difficulty with it... 

Backs: 1, Forwards: 0!  I assume you must have been a forward, based on your description of yourself.
I'm not sure I entirely agree with your assessment of this part of the test- it is consisten with the physical requirements of a lot of different jobs- ie. policing, firefighting.  I guess the emphasis on cardio vs. resistance is what the 'experts' consider important.  Maybe you're right, though, and all of the jobs with similar physical standards should review their testing methods.

I even had one subordinate who had already achieved exempt on the run, yet because of a slight adjustment of his hand position during the push-ups, he failed the whole test!  Why could he not have simply started the push-ups again?

This I agree with wholeheartedly.  I understand having to pass the test by meeting its requirements, and how allowing a liberal interpretation of the test standards could be problematic.  Someone adjusting their hands, tripping over a shoelace, or <insert possible fluke here> is very different than someone who is not capable of completing the fitness test.  Testers being allowed to exercise discretion would be a nice touch.

 

[Stoker]

This I agree with wholeheartedly.  I understand having to pass the test by meeting its requirements, and how allowing a liberal interpretation of the test standards could be problematic.  Someone adjusting their hands, tripping over a shoelace, or <insert possible fluke here> is very different than someone who is not capable of completing the fitness test.  Testers being allowed to exercise discretion would be a nice touch.

Some testers do exercise a little discreation, while others are very rigid. We had had a problem in the past with one of the PSP staff in Halifax especially in regards enforcement of the standards of pushups, some body types do not bode well with the exact standard and they fail because of it. If they had a different staff mbr who showed a little discreation and the mbr still did a decent pushup they would pass.
There was suppose to be navy specific test developed sort of like the BFT, I wondered what ever happened to it?

 

[Occam]

There was suppose to be navy specific test developed sort of like the BFT, I wondered what ever happened to it?

Boat races?  ;D

Watching very carefully to see who catches the reference...

 

[jwtg]

Some testers do exercise a little discreation, while others are very rigid. We had had a problem in the past with one of the PSP staff in Halifax especially in regards enforcement of the standards of pushups, some body types do not bode well with the exact standard and they fail because of it. If they had a different staff mbr who showed a little discreation and the mbr still did a decent pushup they would pass.

I guess there lies the problem- the human factor.

If I'm not mistaken, the test requires pushups (as the current example we're discussing) to be done in rhythm (no rest pauses) from a bend of 90 deg. in the arm to a full extension.  Not extending far enough simply means the testee doesn't have that pushup count (we've all heard the 1...1...1...1..1...lower...lower...2....2...2....3...lower...) and I think that's fair enough.  Things that interrupt the rhythm, however (like the resetting of hands, or a real muscle cramp) are grounds for failure.

Common sense, to me at least, says that if someone screws up in a way that isn't indicative of an inability to perform the required task, they should be given another chance.

I'm not sure how common these kinds of problems occur...I would venture a guess that most of the pushup failures are because people don't fully extend or go all the way down and they end up doing 20-30 pushups and only having 5-10 of them count, etc.

 

[Stoker]

Boat races?  ;D

Watching very carefully to see who catches the reference...

I wish. For a while there were research pers down on the ships seeing how we do business and collected heart rate data on people who were doing wup's and other activities. Apparently a test was suppose to come out that simulated things like casualty evacuation, moving a P250/submersible pump, cutting shoring that sort of thing that would do away with the express and make it more in line with what we actually do.

 

[Halifax Tar]

The problem is that the Expres Test is best suited for long-legged track stars.  Us short-legged rugby players have real difficulty with it.  I simply cannot move fast enough to get to the exempt level on the shuttle run.  I can carry weights big enough to crush the average marathoner for long distances, but I can't keep up with him at speed.

Brother I feel your pain...

Tighthead prop here for the Halifax Tars (see the name now ?) I can lift a 250lb-300lb man over my head at 10 repetitions, I can take 1600 kilos slamming down on my neck and shoulders at about 30mph and push it around but that shuttle run, although its never beaten me, is something I never look forward too. I laugh when I do the hand grip test.

I would much rather the BFT as I find is just a simple walk with some close friends... I guess I will get my wish this July lol CFJSR look out...

 

[PuckChaser]

Short and small rugby player should be able to do well on the Shuttle run as well. A lot of the test at the higher end is how fast you can stop and accelerate. Long-legged individuals such as myself take a couple strides to get up to speed, and even though we need less strides to get to the line we're not going as fast and may miss the time. A member of the forums here has a breakdown of the shuttles: http://canadianmilitaryandefence.blogspot.com/2011/01/20-meter-shuttle-run-20msr-breakdown.html Stage 7 is where you start moving below a 5 min/KM in speed, which is a pretty attainable standard to achieve. If you can run 5 km in 25 minutes, you should be able to get exempt on the shuttle run.

 

[JMesh]

I even had one subordinate who had already achieved exempt on the run, yet because of a slight adjustment of his hand position during the push-ups, he failed the whole test!

If this was 2010 or 2011, that shouldn't have happened (I can't speak with certainty prior to that). The Canadian Forces EXPRES Operations Manual, 4th edition states on page 38:
[quote author=Canadian Forces EXPRES Operations Manual, 4th edition, page 38, para 56.d.]In many cases, lack of compliance with protocol (e.g., arching back on a push-up, not going down far enough, moving hands farther apart) can be corrected verbally and simply results in push-ups that do not count. Such situations should not result in termination of the test unless it is evident that advantage is being gained.[/quote]

In this instance, the push-ups should have just not counted.

WRT the navy fitness test, the PSP website still shows it as under development (as it does for the air force specific test).However, I can't speak as to how long it has said that.

Edit to add: Link to Canadian Forces EXPRES Operations Manual, 4th edition

 

[Pusser]

Short and small rugby player should be able to do well on the Shuttle run as well. A lot of the test at the higher end is how fast you can stop and accelerate. Long-legged individuals such as myself take a couple strides to get up to speed, and even though we need less strides to get to the line we're not going as fast and may miss the time. A member of the forums here has a breakdown of the shuttles: http://canadianmilitaryandefence.blogspot.com/2011/01/20-meter-shuttle-run-20msr-breakdown.html Stage 7 is where you start moving below a 5 min/KM in speed, which is a pretty attainable standard to achieve. If you can run 5 km in 25 minutes, you should be able to get exempt on the shuttle run.

I didn't say I was a short small rugby player.  I'm actually quite a large rugby player (as some of my unfortunate opponents have found out  ;D).  However, my legs are disproportionately shorter than my height would normally indicate (finding shirts to fit is a royal pain as the body and sleeves for my neck size are usually too short).  Thus, I have to run faster and take more steps to make the line in time, while my long legged-compatriots  don't have to work as hard.  If I could achieve Stage 7, I would be exempt (I've also been around awhile).  I have never achieved exempt on the shuttle run, but always did on the step test.  The strength tests are a bit of a joke for me.  The grip test plus minimum push-ups and sit-ups gives me an exempt score without hardly trying.  If it wasn't for the run, I'd be golden.  Give me a ruck  and let me go for a stroll and I'd be a very happy man indeed.

 

[PuckChaser]

Definitely didn't mean to single you out as the rugby player type, just seemed like an appropriate quote to jump in with.

I've seen Veh Mechs exempt the Expres with just the hand grip, so the standards can be broken with strength training in certain areas. I'm with you on the BFT aspect, I hate the Expres but actually enjoy doing the BFT. I'm a fairly skinny individual, but with 50lb pack and my FFO I can ruck up and go for days.

 

[Pusser]

Definitely didn't mean to single you out as the rugby player type, just seemed like an appropriate quote to jump in with.

I've seen Veh Mechs exempt the Expres with just the hand grip, so the standards can be broken with strength training in certain areas. I'm with you on the BFT aspect, I hate the Expres but actually enjoy doing the BFT. I'm a fairly skinny individual, but with 50lb pack and my FFO I can ruck up and go for days.

Don't worry.  I didn't take it personally.  My point is that the Expres Test favours certain body types that I don't fit into and it frustrates me.