CF Members and time alloted for PT

[jwtg]

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.

I'm saying the CF should ensure you have the opportunity to maintain an acceptable level of fitness.   

I said you SHOULD HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY, as in, an opportunity provided by the CF.  This is common sense- the CF expects something work related from you, they should provide the work-opportunity to achieve it.    I apologize if you thought I was assuming you already had said opportunity.

Please don't apply a microscope to one line of text when it is found in a body context-providing text.
I don't remember saying you should have to stay at work for 16 hours every day.

 

[Sigger]

I think there is a big difference between the Mbr who can pass the CF Expres just fine, but does not have time to do the suggested 5hrs/week workout and the Mbr who sweats brushing his/her teeth but complains he/she has to do PT on his/her own time.
There is no excuse for being a soft body in the CF. 

 

[jwtg]

I think there is a big difference between the Mbr who can pass the CF Expres just fine, but does not have time to do the suggested 5hrs/week workout and the Mbr who sweats brushing his/her teeth but complains he/she has to do PT on his/her own time.
There is no excuse for being a soft body in the CF.

Agreed.  If someone's work commitments eliminate the possibility of working out, then the CF needs to reevaluate they way some units operate.
That being said, not everybody needs 5 hours a week to maintain an acceptable level of fitness. 
When I said 'invest time into above average fitness' I didn't put a qualifier on what that time-frame is, and I'm not about to.  Whatever is required to ensure acceptable fitness is what I'm getting at- which may or may not be daily physical activity.  To guys like CDN Aviator- if you're staying in shape just fine without daily exercise, then my comments as to discipline and opportunities for fitness clearly need not apply.  You are the solution, not the problem.

The problem is soft bodies.

 

[ballz]

This is common sense- the CF expects something work related from you, they should provide the work-opportunity to achieve it.

A few people have said things like this, but I don't see how it is common sense to be honest. There are plenty of jobs in the civilian world that require you to be in good physica condition, many of them require you to be in better physical condition than a lot of jobs in the CF. No one in the civilian world goes to the gym on their boss's dime.

I'm grateful for opportunities to do PT or sports during working hours. I'm grateful to have a free gym membership. I don't feel entitled to it at all.

 

[Haggis]

I said the CF should take a strong and uniform stance.  Real discipline.  If the CF is going to say this is a priority, then they have to make it a priority and make real consequences for failing to meet the standards.

The DAOD is a strong and uniform stance.  There is ONE DAOD, and, hence, one standard, for Regular Force, Primary Reserve, Army Navy, Air Force, JAG, etc.etc. etc.

But, like many other standards, it is not uniformly applied in all relevant cases.  There are exceptions made and blind eyes turned.  We have to accept that there are people in the CF and people are the weak link in the application of any policy.  That's why I wrote the the incentive should be "keeping my job".  I don't mean we need to fire people who won't stay fit (note I didn't say "can't" - that's a whole different kettle of fish). We have to do what's required to encorage them to stay/get fit by denying them jammy jobs, promotions, courses etc. until they meet the MINIMUM standard. The DAOD makes provisions to put members on RW and C&P which, effectively, stops their careers until the problem is fixed.

If they then fail to do so, then we go deeper into the DAOD for "motivation", up to and including release.

FYI I'm 50 years old with a two volume medical file and a PCAT.  I passed 4 BFTs last year and never failed to get less than exempt on an EXRES test.  It ain't that hard.

 

[Sigger]

I'm grateful for opportunities to do PT or sports during working hours. I'm grateful to have a free gym membership. I don't feel entitled to it at all.

I completely agree. It is our responsibility to achieve the level of fitness the CF has set as standard. On our own time if need be.

 

[jwtg]

...But, like many other standards, it is not uniformly applied in all relevant cases. 

Then perhaps I should correct my language- the uniform standards should be uniformly applied.

FYI I'm 50 years old with a two volume medical file and a PCAT.  I passed 4 BFTs last year and never failed to get less than exempt on an EXRES test.  It ain't that hard.

Again, 'hard' is relative.  It ain't hard for you, or for me.  It is certainly more than I would expect of the average person on the street though, which would be the 'average' I was referring to when I implied the CF fitness standards were 'above-average.'

 

[PuckChaser]

I said the CF should take a strong and uniform stance.  Real discipline.  If the CF is going to say this is a priority, then they have to make it a priority and make real consequences for failing to meet the standards.

As CDN Aviator pointed out, the CF has made the standard and consequences. Its the Chain of Command who is responsible for enforcing that standard. I personally haven't seen the CF CWO out on any of my BFTs making sure everyone finishes within the allotted time. I've also had certain higher ranking members give me ackward looks when I'm evaluating the dig/casualty evac and fail someone for going over time, or even failing someone on a PWT2 shoot. Enforcement starts at the lowest level with junior leaders.

 

[Sigger]

Again, 'hard' is relative.

relative to what?
We are talking about fitness in the CF.

jwtg, no need trying to defend yourself.. we know what you mean.

 

[jwtg]

'Hard,' would be relative to the person taking the test.  Nobody requires you to be able to pass the EXPRES with ease- just being able to pass it is what is required.  EXPRES being hard is ok (though obviously not ideal...exemption being the ideal) and Haggis' post was condescending to anyone who struggles with the EXPRES, yet toughs it out and passes.

Not everyone is as fit as he is.  Not everyone has to be.

 

[Sigger]

Not everyone is as fit as he is.  Not everyone has to be.

lol.. Im sure as hell not as fit as a 031 Chief!

 

[ff149]

Our trade (military firefighters) has its own DOAD regarding fitness and fitness testing (DOAD 4007-4). We are required to do 1 hour per shift. Does it always happen, no some shifts you are too busy or have your work out routine interrupted by a call. We have our own PT test also. Most fire halls are finally getting half decent gyms in them as we can't go to base gym (occasionally we do for floor hockey etc). We still have our share of people that have problems with the PT test but we seem to be heading in the right direction. 

 

[Chilme]

It is important for us to remember that physical fitness is an individuals soldiers responsibility.  It is not a soldiers right, it is an expectation.  The CF is not some government funded program designed to make Canadians Fit.  It is an organization that takes mentally and physically capable Canadians and turns them into fighting men and women.  It is not some government funded "Biggest Loser" contest.

Granted, the CF has provided the funding for many high quality fitness and sports facilities, equipment, sports leagues, and staff to train/coach mbrs for FREE!!!  Lets not forget that many CF Pers have a local gym membership purchased for them if they are not in proximity of a CFB.  Not to mention paid time for many to do it.

Out there on Civi street the average Canadian has to PAY for gym memberships, professionally led training/personal training, to compete in organized sport, for their of fitness and/or sporting gear/equipment, and it is all conducted on one's OWN time.

In my mind the CF has a pretty good PT set up, often parallel to that of professional athletes.

 

[gcclarke]

It is important for us to remember that physical fitness is an individuals soldiers responsibility.  It is not a soldiers right, it is an expectation.  The CF is not some government funded program designed to make Canadians Fit.  It is an organization that takes mentally and physically capable Canadians and turns them into fighting men and women.  It is not some government funded "Biggest Loser" contest.

Granted, the CF has provided the funding for many high quality fitness and sports facilities, equipment, sports leagues, and staff to train/coach mbrs for FREE!!!  Lets not forget that many CF Pers have a local gym membership purchased for them if they are not in proximity of a CFB.  Not to mention paid time for many to do it.

Out there on Civi street the average Canadian has to PAY for gym memberships, professionally led training/personal training, to compete in organized sport, for their of fitness and/or sporting gear/equipment, and it is all conducted on one's OWN time.

In my mind the CF has a pretty good PT set up, often parallel to that of professional athletes.

And it is also important to note that it is the responsibility of a commanding officer to ensure that personnel are provided opportunity to work out. It is not soley the member's responsibility, it is a shared responsibility between the person and his or her chain of command.

CF members of the Regular Force and Primary Reserve shall participate in regular physical fitness training. COs are responsible to ensure that CF members are provided opportunities to conduct physical fitness activities during normal working hours when circumstances permit. When this is not feasible, CF members should conduct physical fitness activities outside normal working hours. As general guidance, physical fitness activities should be conducted in 60-minute sessions, a minimum of five times per week.

That "when this is not feasible" clause does not in any way shape or form excuse a unit from never providing opportunity for physical fitness during the work day, or from affording just enough time to pay lip service to the notion of physical fitness. Should someone who has not been given enough opportunity to work out during the work day fail their EXPRES test, it is, in my humble opinion, as much of a failure of leadership as it is on the part of the member. The example that CDN Aviator posted above, if truely indicative of his average day, is a prime example, in my mind, of what not to do.

And yes, I realize that most of this rant has a Reg Force bias, as of course a CO cannot ensure that someone who's only working for them a day or two a week has 5 1 hour blocks of time devoted to physical fitness.

But anyways, this is a hard and fast job requirement, and I see no reason why member should be routinely expected to work towards this job requirement on their personal time any more than I would expect them to go to the range and get qualified on the C7 on their personal time, or practice fire-fighting techniques on their personal time.

Along these lines, I would like to point out the direction from one Gen W.J. Natynczyk in the latest version of the CDS's Guideance to Commanding Officers. Emphasis mine:

2203.1 Consistent leadership is fundamental to our being recognized as an organization that embraces a culture of fitness. The following are some fundamental concepts that I expect to see incorporated in all strategies to promote physical fitness in the CF:

a. Physical fitness is a leadership issue.
b. Physical fitness is essential to the operational readiness of all CF personnel.
c. Physical fitness should be promoted as part of a holistic approach to health and wellness in the CF.
d. Strategic physical fitness initiatives must include three key ingredients to be successful: leadership, motivation, and facilitation.

2203.2 Leadership: Provide fitness leadership at every level in your respective units. This must include leading by example, helping subordinates get fit, and enforcing fitness policies.

2203.3 Motivation: Provide all your personnel with a very powerful incentive to achieve and maintain their physical fitness.  Focus on providing incentives that reward success instead of punishing failure.

2203.4 Facilitation: Adapt your unit working environment to make it easier for all your members to make the daily choice of improving or maintaining their physical fitness.  Recognize that a variety of fitness training regimes can be employed to attain your unit’s fitness aims.

2203.5 These fundamental concepts are supported by the following selection of fitness guidelines to establishing a culture of fitness:

a. It is imperative that the requirement for fitness training at least five times a week is respected and applied.  As Commanding Officers you will be in a position to facilitate this requirement for all your personnel.
b. Seek out every opportunity for CF members to include exercise in their work routines. The mantras of “fitness on your own time” or “we don’t have time for fitness” are to be eliminated.   Given what we know of the power of daily fitness to increase morale, reduce stress, and improve work performance, it is incumbent upon us to be innovative in our approach when a formal fitness routine is impractical.
c. Seek out every opportunity to promote and reward healthy physical activities and fitness practices.
d. Commanding officers’ active involvement in fitness programs and their visible success on fitness evaluations is critical to convincing the CF member that physical fitness is a shared value in the organization.
e. A group fitness programs approach is preferred.  Although the merits of individual programs are well known, where possible consider training as a group to derive the benefits of esprit de corps, control, and monitoring.
f. A group/unit fitness evaluations approach is required.  Doing your evaluations as a group/unit has the potential to motivate higher levels of fitness achievement and reduce administration.
g. Don’t focus the entire fitness programs on making the fitness standard but rather emphasize the additional health benefits of living a positive lifestyle. Simple adherence to a minimum physical fitness standard is only a building block in a systematic approach to effecting cultural change.
h. Seek variety and progression in fitness training programs employing cross training where possible.
i. Continuous education of staff, leadership and personnel on a healthy lifestyle and fitness practices as well as how to exercise safely is imperative. Consult with local PSP fitness staff for assistance.
j. Do not turn a blind eye to obesity. Obesity is a valid indicator of current or developing health problems. We have solid evidence-based weight loss programs in the CF, the utilization of which will benefit both our operational readiness and the health of the CF member.
k. Partner with the available professional organizations and capitalize on their programs.  The Canadian Forces Personnel Support Agency’s (CFPSA) Personnel Support Program (PSP) and the Directorate of Force Health Protection’s (DFHP) Strengthening the Forces program have specifically been put in to place to help service your fitness, health and wellness needs.

 

[ballz]

But anyways, this is a hard and fast job requirement, and I see no reason why member should be routinely expected to work towards this job requirement on their personal time any more than I would expect them to go to the range and get qualified on the C7 on their personal time, or practice fire-fighting techniques on their personal time.

Well, we do get paid 24/7 right?

I mean don't get me wrong, I am not advocating against CO's doing all they can to ensure physical finess, I just think the more we push this childish (in my opinion it's childish and spoiled to think we are "owed" an hour a day to work out) "let us do it during our 40 hr work week then if it means so much to you" argument, the closer we get to doing mandatory unit PT from 7-8, and a 45 hr work week being the result.

And why I think that would be terrible is that it would be $#!++Y PT for somone that wants to strive to be in the best physical condition they can achieve, and very counterproductive to them. And it wouldn't be near good enough PT to justify this.

 

[aesop081]

The example that CDN Aviator posted above, if truely indicative of his average day, is a prime example, in my mind, of what not to do.

First, it is not an average day but is fairly frequent. i dont fly like that 5 days a week but, some weeks, i end up doing it more than once or sometimes, not at all.

Second, you fail to understand when you say "what not to do". If the guidance is to spend 1 hour, 5 days a week doing physical fitness, the unit cannot adapt its operations, in any way, to allow ALL its members to follow guidance. Training flights controlled by the unit can be changed, operational flights dictated by operational commands cannot. The nature of the mission itself dictates what time takeoff and landing will be. There is nothing the unit CO can do about it and higher command cannot either.

No matter what is done, an entire crew, on any given day, will not be able to do its 1 hour. You can quote the CDS guidance all you want, it fails to meet reality.

 

[aesop081]

Well, we do get paid 24/7 right?

No, we dont. if that was the case, i am grossly underpaid. I am, however, paid the same amount regardless of the time i actualy spend at work. That is not unlike many people on civvy street.

Being on salary vice hourly wage, is not unique to the military.

 

[ballz]

No, we dont. if that was the case, i am grossly underpaid. I am, however, paid the same amount regardless of the time i actualy spend at work. That is not unlike many people on civvy street.

Being on salary vice hourly wage, is not unique to the military.

No, but an accountant works on salary. His job is "x" files, done by "y" date. Whether he spends 12 hrs a day doing them, or 16 hrs, or 24 hrs, is irrelevant.

Not much different from some of the officers I've worked with from what I could tell. They weren't in the office from 8-4. Our job is "x + be in physical condition." It is not "x + 5 hrs a week," so I don't see why we're to be owed compensation for, or given time within an 8 hr work day, to obtain that "be in physical condition," just like we aren't really compensated for doing "x" job even if it takes us 60 hrs in one week.

Like I said, I'm grateful for the CF's stance on PT. I didn't expect when I applied that I would get to go to the gym in the middle of my workd day. If things can be improved, even awesomer. But like I said, I don't like the "you owe use the time because you expect it" argument, for stated reasons.

 

[gcclarke]

First, it is not an average day but is fairly frequent. i dont fly like that 5 days a week but, some weeks, i end up doing it more than once or sometimes, not at all.

Second, you fail to understand when you say "what not to do". If the guidance is to spend 1 hour, 5 days a week doing physical fitness, the unit cannot adapt its operations, in any way, to allow ALL its members to follow guidance. Training flights controlled by the unit can be changed, operational flights dictated by operational commands cannot. The nature of the mission itself dictates what time takeoff and landing will be. There is nothing the unit CO can do about it and higher command cannot either.

No matter what is done, an entire crew, on any given day, will not be able to do its 1 hour. You can quote the CDS guidance all you want, it fails to meet reality.

Granted, but the other crews can. If you're flying 1 - 2 times a week, I don't see a problem with only getting those 3-4 hours elsewhere in the week. If you're flying 4 times a week, and can only get a workout in once a week, then that's a problem.

But it is definitely a problem when people are still being told when they work in an office, or in a ship alongside, or something else similar, that they can't go do any PT on the clock.

Well, we do get paid 24/7 right?

I mean don't get me wrong, I am not advocating against CO's doing all they can to ensure physical finess, I just think the more we push this childish (in my opinion it's childish and spoiled to think we are "owed" an hour a day to work out) "let us do it during our 40 hr work week then if it means so much to you" argument, the closer we get to doing mandatory unit PT from 7-8, and a 45 hr work week being the result.

And why I think that would be terrible is that it would be $#!++Y PT for somone that wants to strive to be in the best physical condition they can achieve, and very counterproductive to them. And it wouldn't be near good enough PT to justify this.

Yeah, this attitude pisses me off. We don't get paid 24/7. We get paid to do our assigned duties. I don't have assigned duties 24/7, if I did I would be dead because I wouldn't have slept in the last 6 years. These assigned duties sometimes entail longer hours, but they sure as heck should not on a continual basis. The more people assume that members will routinely (as in not for an urgent operational reason) work excessive amounts of overtime, their physical fitness, emotional well-being, and social lives be damned, the faster we will lose people once the economy isn't junk anymore.

In the CDS direction I posted, it specifically said to work physical fitness into our "work routines". AKA the regular hours during which one would typically be expected to be at work. I'm sorry if you feel this direction is childish. As for the slipperly slope of terrible group PT you mentioned, again, that's up to the unit to decide. I don't think that many would like to focus on that route, mainly for the reasons you mentioned.

 

[blacktriangle]

I still think we blow our PT standards out of proportion. Does it really take that much work to pass an express test?

It really shouldn't be that hard for anyone to meet the minimum standard in the CF. I can spend 0 hours a week doing PT and still attain or surpass that standard. I am not some naturally gifted athlete.  My father is 55 years old and can attain the standard for my age plus other things. I have had Pl WO's that smoke and drink themselves to death, and can still run level 10 or more on the beep test at age 40+.

At the same time, I do feel bad for some people that are overweight etc but very good at their trades. But what can you do?