Cenotaph/Memorial Vandalism/Solutions-Laws (merged)
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48th - you're totally missing my point, so I'll restate it.
Until we (the collective we) in Canadian society begin accepting responsibility for our actions, and demonstrating that acceptance to our (the collective our) children, then we are at least in part culpable when those children grow up excusing their actions, no matter how heinous.
I too am a Veteran, as are many on this board - what's that got to do with the societal failure being demonstrated by this self described "victim"? I am also aware that most Veterans take full responsibility for their actions, making no excuses for their failures or lapses in judgement - that is part of the military culture. Unfortunately, it is decidedly NOT part of the culture at large (at least in my experience and observation, I'm not qualified to state this as a fact). In my opinion, until that same acceptance of responsibility becomes part of the larger Canadian culture, we can expect this type of self-excusal by idiots and criminals to continue.
Edit: I came across this column minutes after I posted the above. It provides an interesting perspective - I won't reprint the whole thing, but provide the link: http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Columnists/Byfield_Ted/2006/07/09/1675157.html
Until we (the collective we) in Canadian society begin accepting responsibility for our actions, and demonstrating that acceptance to our (the collective our) children, then we are at least in part culpable when those children grow up excusing their actions, no matter how heinous.
I too am a Veteran, as are many on this board - what's that got to do with the societal failure being demonstrated by this self described "victim"? I am also aware that most Veterans take full responsibility for their actions, making no excuses for their failures or lapses in judgement - that is part of the military culture. Unfortunately, it is decidedly NOT part of the culture at large (at least in my experience and observation, I'm not qualified to state this as a fact). In my opinion, until that same acceptance of responsibility becomes part of the larger Canadian culture, we can expect this type of self-excusal by idiots and criminals to continue.
Edit: I came across this column minutes after I posted the above. It provides an interesting perspective - I won't reprint the whole thing, but provide the link: http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Columnists/Byfield_Ted/2006/07/09/1675157.html
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Roy Harding said:
That's an interesting article, but to be quite honest, people are looking for someone else to blame other than where the blame directly lays, on the kids and the parents. The kids, because they should know better at their ages. My kids know better than to go urinate anywhere else but in a toilet, and the parents because obviously they did not take their job as seriously as they should when raising those kids. JMO.
At 23, I was a married mother of 2.....geez, I had my first child at 16, but I have tried to always accepted responsibility for the screw ups I have had. That was something my mother always taught us....personal accountability. If we screwed up, fess up immediately, don't sit there and try to blame it on anyone, or anything else. Just admit it, apologize and offer to fix the issue.
It really is quite simple.
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Springroll said:
You're correct - at an individual level, it is simple - as stated in one of my previous posts regarding my own family.
On a societal scale, however, it doesn't seem to be so simple. It is the societal scale that I am addressing.
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Cross pulled off Cenotaph near Barrie, Ontario:
Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act
July 9, 2006
Vandals desecrate war monument near Barrie
CTV.ca News Staff
On the heels of national outrage sparked by the desecration of the National War Memorial in Ottawa, vandals have desecrated a cenotaph in a small town south of Barrie.
South Simcoe police are looking for those responsible for tearing the cross from the monument at Branch 547 of the Royal Canadian Legion in Belle Ewart on Lake Simcoe.
Police believe the 23-kilogram concrete cross, positioned above a plaque that reads "Lest We Forget," was ripped off using a chain or rope tied to an all-terrain vehicle.
This is the third time in recent years the cross was torn from the monument. In 2003, a wooden cross was ripped off by vandals. It was replaced by a concrete cross, which was knocked down last fall and thrown threw the window of the nearby church.
Officials with the Lefroy-Belle Ewart legion branch in the Town of Innisfil are upset by the latest incident, which will cost between $1,000 and $1,200.
"I just don't understand these people, especially considered what happened in Ottawa," Bill Pring, vice-president of Branch 547, told The Toronto Star. "It is outrageous."
Last weekend, on Canada Day, two teenagers and a 23-year-old Montreal man were photographed urinating on the National War Memorial in Ottawa.
Canadians across the country were disgusted and angered by the act.
The teens turned themselves, apologized and agreed to perform community service. They will not be charged.
The man, Stephen Fernandes, has been charged with mischief. In an exclusive interview with CTV News, he apologized for his actions, saying he had no recollection of the event because he was heavily intoxicated.
In the Belle Ewart incident, a nearby Second World War veteran has put up a $100 reward for information on the culprits.
The local legion branch says it will have trouble covering the cost of the cenotaph repairs because of budget constraints.
Donations can be sent to Branch 547, Royal Canadian Legion, 1017 Robinson St., Belle Ewart, Ont., P.O. Box 140, L0L 1C0.
© 2006 Bell Globemedia Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act
July 9, 2006
Vandals desecrate war monument near Barrie
CTV.ca News Staff
On the heels of national outrage sparked by the desecration of the National War Memorial in Ottawa, vandals have desecrated a cenotaph in a small town south of Barrie.
South Simcoe police are looking for those responsible for tearing the cross from the monument at Branch 547 of the Royal Canadian Legion in Belle Ewart on Lake Simcoe.
Police believe the 23-kilogram concrete cross, positioned above a plaque that reads "Lest We Forget," was ripped off using a chain or rope tied to an all-terrain vehicle.
This is the third time in recent years the cross was torn from the monument. In 2003, a wooden cross was ripped off by vandals. It was replaced by a concrete cross, which was knocked down last fall and thrown threw the window of the nearby church.
Officials with the Lefroy-Belle Ewart legion branch in the Town of Innisfil are upset by the latest incident, which will cost between $1,000 and $1,200.
"I just don't understand these people, especially considered what happened in Ottawa," Bill Pring, vice-president of Branch 547, told The Toronto Star. "It is outrageous."
Last weekend, on Canada Day, two teenagers and a 23-year-old Montreal man were photographed urinating on the National War Memorial in Ottawa.
Canadians across the country were disgusted and angered by the act.
The teens turned themselves, apologized and agreed to perform community service. They will not be charged.
The man, Stephen Fernandes, has been charged with mischief. In an exclusive interview with CTV News, he apologized for his actions, saying he had no recollection of the event because he was heavily intoxicated.
In the Belle Ewart incident, a nearby Second World War veteran has put up a $100 reward for information on the culprits.
The local legion branch says it will have trouble covering the cost of the cenotaph repairs because of budget constraints.
Donations can be sent to Branch 547, Royal Canadian Legion, 1017 Robinson St., Belle Ewart, Ont., P.O. Box 140, L0L 1C0.
© 2006 Bell Globemedia Inc. All Rights Reserved.
the 48th regulator
Army.ca Fixture
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Sorry Roy,
I was more upset with the interview that he did, than the comment you made. I guess I zeroed in on it, as it focused on the character's age, and how I could use it to compare.
However,
Not charge them? Study them? Ay carumba....should we have taken such and approach with Bernardo...not charge him...leave him out in society and study how he offends...investigate his past..
Sorry that may have been to the extreme, but I must mirror what Springroll said. We have to stop finding who to blame, and nail the culprit. We have values, and laws in place for a reason. Break them, face the consequences.
As far as I am concerned, the younger of the three showed he is finally aware of his wrong, apologised and was willing to accept whatever was dished out to him by the Vets.
On the other hand we have a character, that moaned about how we were upset at him. He was drunk and out of control, so therefore we should have pity....Pathetic!
My Argument of me being a "Veteran" was to indicate at his age, I did for my country what he was pissing on. Sacrificed my life for the freedom he has to act the fool.
So, Roy, I may appear that I took your comment out of text, however, I will not stand for allowing him to get off the hook that easily.
dileas
tess
I was more upset with the interview that he did, than the comment you made. I guess I zeroed in on it, as it focused on the character's age, and how I could use it to compare.
However,
Not charge them? Study them? Ay carumba....should we have taken such and approach with Bernardo...not charge him...leave him out in society and study how he offends...investigate his past..
Sorry that may have been to the extreme, but I must mirror what Springroll said. We have to stop finding who to blame, and nail the culprit. We have values, and laws in place for a reason. Break them, face the consequences.
As far as I am concerned, the younger of the three showed he is finally aware of his wrong, apologised and was willing to accept whatever was dished out to him by the Vets.
On the other hand we have a character, that moaned about how we were upset at him. He was drunk and out of control, so therefore we should have pity....Pathetic!
My Argument of me being a "Veteran" was to indicate at his age, I did for my country what he was pissing on. Sacrificed my life for the freedom he has to act the fool.
So, Roy, I may appear that I took your comment out of text, however, I will not stand for allowing him to get off the hook that easily.
dileas
tess
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Roy Harding said:
I agree with you on that.
If everyone in society had a sense of personal accountability, then it would all be easy, but the problem lays in people looking for an easy way out, the loopholes etc, something else to blame other than themselves, that is not a product of schools, but rather a product of how they were raised.
If their parents have no personal accountability, how can we expect the children too?
That is not excusing what these kids did. They should know better, but by that one kids coming forward and going to apologize at the legion, that shows that not all kids out there nowadays are heartless little pukes who need a throat punch(like the 23yr old twit).
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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I must say that that news article that Roy presented was a very good article and I agree with it in many instances; but as Tess says, they should be punished. Why? If we keep letting people off and blaming society, then they will continue to use that to cover their misdemeanors and crimes. If we give them "serious" punishments, we set them as examples to the rest of society, who will then realize that this is not the norm and adjust their behavior accordingly for fears of suffering the same punishments. We can't wait to 're-educate' our young and hope that they will provide a better future, if the youth of today are still going to carry on with disregard and lack of respect for the Law and Civil Order. Punishment is a form of education. You learn that there are repercussions for your actions. To dismiss those actions as the fault of their parents and teachers lack of 'educating' them, only encourages more anti-social behavior.......as it is not being punished, but rewarded.
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This certainly has become a long string after a week. If I may add my two cents worth. I don't think jail time or a fine or unmeaningful probation (which basically states to be good and don't do it again) would do any good or be appropriate. Does anyone remember the old army type punishment for screw up? He and his fellow cohorts (who can't be named because of that stupid young offenders act) SHOULD / MUST clean our National War Memorial with thier toothbrushes! Jail time and a fine will only let them off the hook with a slap on the wrist. Other anti-social miscreants will see this punishment as a Definate deterant to stupid pranks. Too long now, society has gotten away from appropriate punishments and let no-good-doers off the hook with meaningless time in the slam. I do not condone torture, but menial labour / community service should be returned as punishment for young offenders.
meh, my 2 cents worth for the day.
Cheers
meh, my 2 cents worth for the day.
Cheers
Michael Dorosh
Army.ca Veteran
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Gaspasser said:
Appropriateness of punishment is tied to the individual, though. For some, jail would be the worst thing in the world depending on their psychological makeup, career aspirations, etc. For others, it would be a lark to be laughed off. I think it's hard for any of us to say with certainty what would do the most good in this situation, for the individual involved. Perhaps it is best to forget that and worry about what would deter others from doing it again. I doubt the three involved would ever seriously consider repeating their performance, the worry now is about how others view what happened.
From that perspective, whether jail is or is not approriate for the individual in question here, it may be more appropriate to ask how much of a deterrent effect would it have on others, and not just regards with the Monument but in any type of public urination. Calgary is currently debating a law to clean up downtown of public spitting and defecation in addition to urination. The "debate", if you can believe there actually would be one, is centring on how it would be enforced and on whom. I guess I'm glad we don't have bigger problems to worry about... :
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Shouldn't even go to court, a picture says a thousand words. Besides, some liberal minded lawyer will get them off because their constitutional rights were violated when their pictures were splashed on the front page. OR it was freedom of speech or some other dumb a** excuse.
What about the rights of the Unknown Soldier who lies buried there? Grave desacration!
What about honouring the fallen? And those who still serve today?
Was it you recce, who said (and I love this!) "kneel, face the ditch"
Sorry, but idiotic stuff like what they did just burns me. Call me old fashioned. meh.
Cheers
What about the rights of the Unknown Soldier who lies buried there? Grave desacration!
What about honouring the fallen? And those who still serve today?
Was it you recce, who said (and I love this!) "kneel, face the ditch"
Sorry, but idiotic stuff like what they did just burns me. Call me old fashioned. meh.
Cheers
Michael Dorosh
Army.ca Veteran
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Gaspasser said:
Y'know, you're right, executions without trial is exactly the reason the Unknown Soldier died! Thank God we live in Canada, eh.
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no, that's one of mine. "Kneel down. Face the ditch."Gaspasser said:
I agree. In the perfect world, having everyone fully understand the meaning of respect, how and why it exists would be magnificant. However, since we currently do not live in the perfect world, I would also lean toward punishment.George Wallace said:
George Wallace said:
Again, I agree. TV, music, none of this makes you do these things. Why? Because I'm not that old myself, I grew up with MTV, Marilyn Manson, Death Metal, Punk. You don't see me whipping out my junk and taking a leak on a monument though.
When I was growing up, if I did something that my parents did not deem acceptable, I was punished. After one or two incidents of innappropiate actions/behavior, I would catch on. If I play with matches, I would get a spanking, and sent to my room for the day, with no toys, etc. Or, if I used foul language or got into a fight, then I would get punished. Later, as the mind develops, ya just catch on. Don't be an ass and you won't get in trouble. You distinguish right from wrong without even being told, simply because you're growing up.
If a harsh punishment awaited those who vandalize, then these punks wouldn't have even went near the place under the influence of alcohol, exposing themselves indecently, and expelling biological waste on something that they should have an honor just standing next to.
Bottom line, the legal system is too soft, period.
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I've been internet-ninja'd. I'm leaving it up for the humour.Gaspasser said:
