CDN/US Covid-related political discussion

[garb811]

Back in the days before technology, something about the old ways just have their appeal still.  Tracking apps are going to bring up huge privacy concerns, how is the data stored, and for how long? what data is being given? name? address? every place you go? how long you are there, if other people have the app, now you could be tracking communities, social networks, etc..... I would not be surprised if problems came up from the privacy commissioner or the courts.

My point is, and has been before, is people are already giving all of that up, for free and voluntarily, to companies. The same companies who, 95% of the time, have a stipulation in the EULA that they are free to do whatever they want with the data you give them. Including selling it for profit.  And just because a company is a good corporate citizen and doesn't do that, if they sell out to another company, that data now belongs to the company who bought them out and whatever their EULA is.

Facebook isn't valued at $500 billion simply because it pops ads for cat litter up beside the kitty picture you clicked like on...
Tinder isn't valued at $1 billion because of all the people paying for their premium subscription...
Alphabet (parent of Google) isn't valued at $1 TRILLION because they give good search results and free email...
President's Choice doesn't give you free groceries simply because you're a loyal customer and get good discounts with their app...
Shaw isn't being nice by having all those free hot-spots all around Canada where you can get free WiFi...
Your cellphone company has the data of every where you go, how long you spend there, who you call/text in each location, can aggregate everyone else who was at the same location at the same time who are also customers...
Ancestry doesn't offer cheap DNA tests out of the goodness of their hearts...

For people to be suddenly screaming, "Oh no! The government want's to track me with a COVID app!!" is ignoring the reality of what they have already voluntarily agreed to just because it is convenient. 

Again, not saying the CAF, or any level of government, should be able to compel anyone to install any kind of software, just saying people need to take a hard look at what they are already doing before they start expressing outrage about the PM musing about recommending that people install something voluntarily.

 

[PuckChaser]

For people to be suddenly screaming, "Oh no! The government want's to track me with a COVID app!!" is ignoring the reality of what they have already voluntarily agreed to just because it is convenient. 

I totally get your point, but in the same vein private companies aren't threatening to jail or heavily fine people for going for a walk alone in a park. In a free society people get to decide what value their personal information has, and whether they want to exchange that information for goods/services.

 

[stellarpanther]

I don't think the CAF will actually order anyone to install any app on their personal phones, I don't think they have the authority.  If they do it might a good idea to suddenly show up to work with an old flip phone or burner that never leaves the house.  As well don't apps require a data plan to work?  I was surprised to learn how many people don't have data on their phones.  I only recently got a small package about 6 months ago. 
As far as ordinary Canadians installing the app, most won't do it.

 

[ModlrMike]

The whole thing sounds just too Orwellian for me. Another reminder that 1984 and Animal Farm are warnings, not instruction manuals.

 

[ballz]

My point is, and has been before, is people are already giving all of that up, for free and voluntarily, to companies. The same companies who, 95% of the time, have a stipulation in the EULA that they are free to do whatever they want with the data you give them. Including selling it for profit.  And just because a company is a good corporate citizen and doesn't do that, if they sell out to another company, that data now belongs to the company who bought them out and whatever their EULA is.

Facebook isn't valued at $500 billion simply because it pops ads for cat litter up beside the kitty picture you clicked like on...
Tinder isn't valued at $1 billion because of all the people paying for their premium subscription...
Alphabet (parent of Google) isn't valued at $1 TRILLION because they give good search results and free email...
President's Choice doesn't give you free groceries simply because you're a loyal customer and get good discounts with their app...
Shaw isn't being nice by having all those free hot-spots all around Canada where you can get free WiFi...
Your cellphone company has the data of every where you go, how long you spend there, who you call/text in each location, can aggregate everyone else who was at the same location at the same time who are also customers...
Ancestry doesn't offer cheap DNA tests out of the goodness of their hearts...

For people to be suddenly screaming, "Oh no! The government want's to track me with a COVID app!!" is ignoring the reality of what they have already voluntarily agreed to just because it is convenient. 

Again, not saying the CAF, or any level of government, should be able to compel anyone to install any kind of software, just saying people need to take a hard look at what they are already doing before they start expressing outrage about the PM musing about recommending that people install something voluntarily.

Private companies just want my money, and 99.99999% of them are willing to obtain my money through fair value exchanges instead of something illegal like fraud/theft/etc.

Government has a monopoly on the use of force and has a track record of using it in abhorrent ways.

 

[Altair]

If the CAF want me to have an app on my phone, that's fine.

First off, they can provide me with a phone.

Secondly, they can pay for the plan.

They can then watch that phone enter my pocket to go to work and leave my pocket when I get home.

 

[mariomike]

First off, they can provide me with a phone.

See also,

Ordered "to get a phone"
https://navy.ca/forums/threads/117338.150
7 pages.

 

[Good2Golf]

If the CAF want me to have an app on my phone, that's fine.

First off, they can provide me with a phone.

Secondly, they can pay for the plan.

They can then watch that phone enter my pocket to go to work and leave my pocket when I get home.

This.

Also when my company asked if I wanted to use my personal phone and be reimbursed, I politely said, “No thanks, a company-issued phone would be perfect, thanks!” Same deal as your position about a DND phone, on one’s personal when one’s on-duty.

Regards
G2G

 

[OceanBonfire]

Canadian-led NATO battlegroup in Latvia targeted by pandemic disinformation campaign

Alliance commanders are pointing fingers at Russia

The Canadian-led NATO battle group in Latvia was the target of a pandemic-related disinformation campaign that alliance commanders say they believe originated in Russia.

Reports circulated recently in some Baltic and Eastern European media outlets that suggested the contingent at Camp Adazi in Kadaga, outside the capital of Riga, had "a high number" of cases of the deadly virus.

"That was definitely not true," said Col. Eric Laforest, commander of the battle group.

When the reports first surfaced, ahead of a major exercise late last month, the Latvian defence ministry swung into action to counter the false information.

"The Latvian authorities here were the ones to set the record straight because it was information about troops stationed in their country," said Laforest. "Rapidly, within a matter of a few hours, they went out and explained what the situation was. It actually happened fairly fast."

NATO was also quick to spot and swat down reports that the camp was a pandemic hot zone, he added.

...


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/nato-latvia-battle-group-pandemic-covid-coronavirus-disinformation-russia-1.5581248

 

[Altair]

See also,

Ordered "to get a phone"
https://navy.ca/forums/threads/117338.150
7 pages.

I have a phone. It's my personal phone. They can reach me on my personal phone. But as for putting a data/battery draining app on my personal phone to track my movements, not on.

If they dare go that far I get a cheap phone with a limited data plan, no minutes, toss the app on that one and call it a day.

 

[Quirky]

From the other thread:

If people want to call people "Leftists", perhaps this would be a better place for that conversation,

CDN/US Covid-related political discussion 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/132115/post-1612337;topicseen#new

Or maybe let's not make assumptions.

Maybe not leftists, but hipsters for sure. Trinity Bellwoods Park is one of the most hipster areas of Toronto, they are literal champagne socialists who vote NDP and Liberal. It's also the home of VICE Canada, the SJW channel. These are all the #stayinside people that were preaching on twitter a month or so ago too. I'm not going to rag on Toronto too much since there will be too many hurt feelings, but if that's big city residences' idea of enjoying the outdoors then count me out. Gross.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

The only thing I know for sure about Toronto is that they couldn't pay me enough to live there ... and someone tried once.  ;D

 

[mariomike]

I'm not going to rag on Toronto too much since there will be too many hurt feelings, but if that's big city residences' idea of enjoying the outdoors then count me out. Gross.

One park out of 1500 in the city to choose from.

I've never had a problem with social distancing in our neighbourhood.

 

[CBH99]

I'm from Alberta, and very much a prairie guy.  I've never been fond of Toronto.

That being said -- it's my own ignorant opinion.  I've only ever landed in Toronto, experienced the 401, and visited downtown a handful of times.  So as much as I say I would never live there, it's based solely on driving the 401 and anxiety raging while trying to figure out downtown -- not exactly a well informed opinion 

Toronto is a large city, with many beautiful suburbs I'm sure.  Like most cities...unless you've lived there and experienced the 'real city', the way the locals do, I'm sure most of us haven't experienced 'the real' Toronto living experience.

 

[PuckChaser]

Reference this post (https://army.ca/forums/threads/131800/post-1612573.html#msg1612573) discussing the CAF report on Ontario LTC Home conditions, it appears the Federal government/DND may have either hidden the report or incompetently left it on a desk for the long weekend...

https://twitter.com/MercedesGlobal/status/1265351340856926208

BLUF from Mercedes Stevenson is that report was allegedly delivered to Bill Blair and PMO on 14 May as dated on report. Delivery could not be verified. It somehow ends up on MNDs desk (politicians claim 21 May) and only given to Bill Blair on 22 May. Federal Government reveals report to Ontario Government at Midnight on 25 May, so even if it was DND bureaucracy holding it for a week, PMO held it for 48 hours.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

One park out of 1500 in the city to choose from.

I've never had a problem with social distancing in our neighbourhood.

I was listening to Matt Gurney yesterday on SiriusXm and he said the same thing; his family went out to a local park and there was hardly anyone at the park.

 

[mariomike]

I was listening to Matt Gurney yesterday on SiriusXm and he said the same thing; his family went out to a local park and there was hardly anyone at the park.

We are pretty well insulated from Trinity Bellwoods, and the rest of the asphalt jungle. Ours is more like a village within a park.

We have Lake Ontario, the Humber River, Grenadier, Rennie and Catfish ponds as our natural boundaries.

Our neighbourhood is extremely hilly in nature with winding roads, steep hillsides, trails and ravines. The streets are lined with mature trees. 

Rennie, our local park, is 24 acres. High Park is connected on the west side of Grenadier Pond. It's 400 acres.

We also like to walk down to Lake Ontario and the western beaches. Our house is about 40 feet above the lake, so it's pretty good exercise walking home.

All I know about that afternoon at Trinity Bellwoods Park - 38 acres -  is what I read in this thread.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Looks like Stephen Harper was on to something in 2006.

Stephen Harper actually announced he wants to increase military presence in our cities.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=unNZtCH9Mdo
That add never gets old.


I was fairly against Canadian soldiers deploying to these care facilities to clean up the province's mess. Pretty good indication I was super wrong, I'm happy our people brought this disgusting systemic problem to light.

I'm betting the problem isn't localized to the GTA area. If Canada is going to make such a big deal dummying our economy to "save lives" then we sure as hell should make a big deal about this.

 

[dapaterson]

A very well-paid PSW will get $19/hour.  RPNs start around $21/hour.  Those PSWs and RPNs are generally offered part-time hours, with minimal (if any benefits) and are at risk of termination for making waves.  As noted in the letter from Comd JTFC, in certain locations they were chastised and threatened for using "excessive" PPE.

A CAF Reg F corporal (non-spec) gets a base pay of $5014 per month, or $60 168 per year.  Using a 37.5 hour week, and 52 weeks a year, that Cpl is paid $30.86 per hour.  Plus benefits.

Well-paid full-time employment with related benefits, coupled with security of tenure make CAF members more able to challenge the status quo in a case like this.


But the ultimate question, of course, is "How much more are taxpayers willing to pay for better conditions at long-term care facilities?"

 

[MilEME09]

Better question where is the current money going? Especially at private facilities. Covid is going to cause a lot of hard questions, and I hope a full national inquiry happens, this is not just a Ontario issue.