Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ

[Cloud Cover]

Even with a magazine somewhat close by, reloading these launchers isn't exactly a speedy process given you need to transport 7 crates of 3 missiles each to the launcher for a full reload, set up a chain pully system and man handle all of the reloads into place. Seems like a design oversight then if they did not account for where they would have reloads and how they would reload the system at sea, given how that is one of the draws of RAM in general. CSC originally had SeaRAM and transitioned to CAMM, and is now back to RAM again. Did they originally not plan for reloads?

I'm not especially impressed with 1 launcher even if its on the centerline with the ability to be reloaded, I'm tired of this design looking at constant downgrades in the design process.

Last 6-7 images on this page are of reloads at sea. It is manual, time intensive, and space is needed to perform the work. I can definitely see how some interested firms might want to add automation for faster reloads. My guess is that the reloads are currently stored somewhere deep in the ship and out of the weather.

RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missile RAM Mk-49 GMLS Mk-144

rim-116 rolling airframe missile ram mk-31 gmws mk-49 gmls mk-144 launcher

www.seaforces.org

Image of launcher and sailors attending to it added for scale. This is not a small mount.

 

[NavyShooter]

It's the base from the current CIWS...it's not that huge.

 

[JMCanada]

Would it make sense to remove the EXLS cells and install instead a 40mm gun?
Otherwise, what about keeping the EXLS and use if for Nulka decoys?

 

[Rainbow1910]

Would it make sense to remove the EXLS cells and install instead a 40mm gun?
Otherwise, what about keeping the EXLS and use if for Nulka decoys?

It wouldn’t make a lot of sense to do either in my opinion, CAMM and RAM from either ExLS or launchers have better range and capability against most threats vs a 40mm gun. The firing angles from that area would be questionable unless you raised the gun significantly, which might have issues with top weight and firing angles with all of antenna's around.

Nulka has far smallest and lighter dedicated launchers, you would never need that many Nulka and launching them from VLS is a waste of space/weight.

 

[JMCanada]

Thanks for your inputs. Yeah, I had thought about firing angles and antennas, but a RAM there would face similar issues. On the other hand, ammunition is much cheaper and, depending on the threat, a gun might be an option.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

My guess is that with swarm attacks becoming the new norm, guns will make a comeback in support of missiles. To mount all the defenses, I see Frigates/Destroyers of less than 7,000DWT being dropped. You will need all of the physical hull space that you can get.

 

[Underway]

I don't think ExLS will be a magazine for RAM. Its on the wrong deck and you're not dropping those large RAM pallets down a deck easily. I think it more likely that a RAS is done to bring the equipment near to the RAM launcher and you just load it up from ammo replenishment from JSS. That makes more sense to me.

My guess is that with swarm attacks becoming the new norm, guns will make a comeback in support of missiles. To mount all the defenses, I see Frigates/Destroyers of less than 7,000DWT being dropped. You will need all of the physical hull space that you can get.

Depends on your PKill. Also EW is a big deal. Germans also shot down a drone in the Red Sea with RAM.

 

[KevinB]

I don't think ExLS will be a magazine for RAM. Its on the wrong deck and you're not dropping those large RAM pallets down a deck easily. I think it more likely that a RAS is done to bring the equipment near to the RAM launcher and you just load it up from ammo replenishment from JSS. That makes more sense to me.



Depends on your PKill. Also EW is a big deal. Germans also shot down a drone in the Red Sea with RAM.

EW and DE are to me the largest pieces of the pie for the swarm type setups - and the vessels have the power to push those options much easier than mobile land systems.

I suspect that CIWS guns will make re-appearances as well simply from a cost versus missiles.

 

[Underway]

EW and DE are to me the largest pieces of the pie for the swarm type setups - and the vessels have the power to push those options much easier than mobile land systems.

I suspect that CIWS guns will make re-appearances as well simply from a cost versus missiles.

Greeks and USN were doing damage with the 127mm. Drones are easy to hit apparently.

 

[Rainbow1910]

Greeks and USN were doing damage with the 127mm. Drones are easy to hit apparently.

There is a variety of 127mm shells that are absolutely deadly to drones, people often forget that there is a lot of overlap between countering drone threats and countering small boat threats. Western navies have been well equipped and trained to counter the latter, and are generally fairly well suited to take on the former now.

An example of this is the IKE-ET 127mm shell originally designed in the early 2000's to counter the threat of Iranian fast boat threats, this has been used in combat in the Red Sea against drones by the US Navy to devastating effect.

 

[Navy_Pete]

There is a variety of 127mm shells that are absolutely deadly to drones, people often forget that there is a lot of overlap between countering drone threats and countering small boat threats. Western navies have been well equipped and trained to counter the latter, and are generally fairly well suited to take on the former now.

An example of this is the IKE-ET 127mm shell originally designed in the early 2000's to counter the threat of Iranian fast boat threats, this has been used in combat in the Red Sea against drones by the US Navy to devastating effect.

air drones are a lot easier to target than small boats or surface drones; things disappear between the waves a lot and generally are hard to hit as they are bouncing around a lot.

 

[JMCanada]

I've had a look to the last CSC rendering and noticed that the (2) RAM launchers might be at the same deck than Nulka launchers. Then... why do not place the Nulkas in the EXLS and use their place to store the RAM missiles?

Just my non-educated opinion.

 

[Underway]

I've had a look to the last CSC rendering and noticed that the (2) RAM launchers might be at the same deck than Nulka launchers. Then... why do not place the Nulkas in the EXLS and use their place to store the RAM missiles?

Just my non-educated opinion.

Because ExLS is expensive and Nulka launchers are cheap. And Nulka hasn't been integrated into ExLS yet.

And the Nulka launchers are not.going to be on the same deck as the RAM. Your looking at the sonoboy launching system. RAM isn't on that rendering.

The various equipment bits shown on the rendering are not up to date and a mix of old ideas and new confirmed ones.

 

[Underway]

There is a variety of 127mm shells that are absolutely deadly to drones, people often forget that there is a lot of overlap between countering drone threats and countering small boat threats. Western navies have been well equipped and trained to counter the latter, and are generally fairly well suited to take on the former now.

An example of this is the IKE-ET 127mm shell originally designed in the early 2000's to counter the threat of Iranian fast boat threats, this has been used in combat in the Red Sea against drones by the US Navy to devastating effect.

Need to look at the Italian ammo options. Not sure that this one will be able to work in the 127LW. Yes I know they say they can fire all standard 127mm but I don't actually believe it.

 

[dapaterson]

Need to look at the Italian ammo options. Not sure that this one will be able to work in the 127LW. Yes I know they say they can fire all standard 127mm but I don't actually believe it.

Vendors? Making false claims about their products?

Say it isn't so!

 

[Underway]

Vendors? Making false claims about their products?

Say it isn't so!

I'm quite happy to be wrong. I did some research and it seems the gun was developed before Vulcano so it's likely to work with normal rounds. Perhaps not BAE ones though.

 

[Kirkhill]

Dutch Navy Programme - Complete Fleet Renewal in the next 10 to 15 years. 80 vessels including auxiliaries and minors. Some national build, some foreign build, some partnerships.

 

[YZT580]

Dutch Navy Programme - Complete Fleet Renewal in the next 10 to 15 years. 80 vessels including auxiliaries and minors. Some national build, some foreign build, some partnerships.

and we are only building one a year. Something definitely wrong with our priorities

 

[Cloud Cover]

Has it been confirmed that the launchers will in fact be the 2 X 21 cell unit? This guy seems to think the ExLS will be used for RAM Missiles. As he points out, why would Canada do this? I hope he is wrong.

“Canada's RIVER-class variant of the Type 26 is reportedly (as of latest official data as published) going to have RAM Block 2 instead of CAMM missiles (despite entering a contract with MBDA for CAMM earlier), but not from a traditional RAM above-deck launcher, but from ExLS cells.”

“How do you put RAM Bk 2, a hot-launch missile, into ExLS cells, however? Well, a LM ExLS presentation does give us an answer: you integrate an exhaust vent directly into the missile canister, since the launcher does not have it. You can see it although image quality is atrocious.”

“It's very hard to tell from this low quality pic but seems fair to say RAM Bk2 in ExLS will not give you 4 missiles per cell like CAMM. It looks more like 2 missiles, with rest of the space eaten up by vents...? I'm not sure Canada will really want to deal with this, honestly.”

https://twitter.com/x/status/1864402400611610676

 

[GK .Dundas]

Has it been confirmed that the launchers will in fact be the 2 X 21 cell unit? This guy seems to think the ExLS will be used for RAM Missiles. As he points out, why would Canada do this? I hope he is wrong.

“Canada's RIVER-class variant of the Type 26 is reportedly (as of latest official data as published) going to have RAM Block 2 instead of CAMM missiles (despite entering a contract with MBDA for CAMM earlier), but not from a traditional RAM above-deck launcher, but from ExLS cells.”

“How do you put RAM Bk 2, a hot-launch missile, into ExLS cells, however? Well, a LM ExLS presentation does give us an answer: you integrate an exhaust vent directly into the missile canister, since the launcher does not have it. You can see it although image quality is atrocious.”

“It's very hard to tell from this low quality pic but seems fair to say RAM Bk2 in ExLS will not give you 4 missiles per cell like CAMM. It looks more like 2 missiles, with rest of the space eaten up by vents...? I'm not sure Canada will really want to deal with this, honestly.”

https://twitter.com/x/status/1864402400611610676

Apparently this what happens when the good idea fairy comes down with rabies...