Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ

[Underway]

Are they going to be super easy to detect though? Especially in a complex environment.

I'm assuming ammo attrition is one aim.
If it is operator controlled it could try some evasive manouvers? Although I'm guessing this would be subject to jamming and I think operator control is limited to 200km
I would think as slow as it is a ship is still way slower and will not have moved much relative to launch?
Open source says it ceiling is limited to 15000 ft which is the effective horizontal range of the 30mm, correct?
What elevation angle is the 30mm capable of and what altitude would it be effective out to?

My understanding is they can be
1. flown into target by operator
2. be used in an anti-radiation mode
3. or identify target via AI

Im not trying to be a jerk I'm just genuinely curious and this is the one of the best places to figure out the answer to these questions

I think Israel has sold 3 naval units now to SE Asia so someone envisions a use for them somewhere and somehow.
Shore bombardment? seems unlikely
attacking small surface vessels?
flying them into other aerial targets like missiles or planes? seems redundant

Like anything else in a complex littoral environment, they might be able to hide. People over-rate new tech all the time. Loitering munitions add one capability. They are just missiles that can hang around in a spot for a long period of time. That's it. That's their thing. They don't have better penetration aids, they aren't faster, they can maybe go further than other small missiles but that's all. They might be a little more stealthy but there are radars that are designed (or have a function) to detect propellers.

In terms of sinking a bluewater ship with proper air defense, you would be better off just buying a proper anti-ship missile for likely the same cost.

As far as 30mm you can find that info yourself. Just google-fu it and look for the glossy brochure PDF's. I wouldn't use a 30mm for that though. Those missiles are going to be dead a long way before they even get near the ship hopefully. 30mm is likely a last gasp against a low and slow like that.

 

[lenaitch]

"legitimate power fluctuation issues (like dropping down to 50 Hz, or swinging between 380 and 500 volts"

This is what we had to deal with from Ontario Hydro from 380 all the way up to 780 I believe. Actually wasn't a problem for us with simple electic motors but I still think the old motors handled all the crap thrown at them better than the new stuff. Of course that new stuff to me is now 20 yrs old. We had capacitor problems for a few months there and that is how I found out what our power input situation was.

Within limits, most 'old style' electric motors will tolerate a fairly wide range of voltages and frequencies, although their performance will suffer. Fancy new motors and their supporting components, such as ECMs, not so much and may simply refuse to run. It's an issue for many homeowners with new generation HVAC systems and portable generators.

The grid is relatively stable simply because of its inertia, the distributed nature of loads and sources and the fact that a lot of the loads are fairly tolerant. I can well imagine widely fluctuating high-tech loads and one or two gensets on a warship would not play nice together.

 

[suffolkowner]

Your not, but it's a factor in defense purchase, I don't expect or want a answer, but can we give full missile loads to all our ships plus 2-3 reloads with our current stock?

Pretty sure I've read many open sources including from that which is not allowed here that we do not have full missile loads for all our ships now. I expect if we needed them we would get them from the states quick enough. I gather that the 127mm would be the preferred choice to take down a cheap UAV at distance unless we can quad pack something cheaper? How much does a CAMM cost? Or maybe something like Iron Dome's Tamir which is supposed to be pretty cheap

 

[lenaitch]

I suppose they could be used to attrit ammunition, but 115mph is just so damn slow.

I have read that the the RN's Fairy Swordfish flew so slowly that German naval fire control systems couldn't compensate and ranged their weapons far ahead of them.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Pretty sure I've read many open sources including from that which is not allowed here that we do not have full missile loads for all our ships now. I expect if we needed them we would get them from the states quick enough. I gather that the 127mm would be the preferred choice to take down a cheap UAV at distance unless we can quad pack something cheaper? How much does a CAMM cost? Or maybe something like Iron Dome's Tamir which is supposed to be pretty cheap

As will every other allied nation and every USN ship that can carry them, can you see the issue?

 

[Underway]

I have read that the the RN's Fairy Swordfish flew so slowly that German naval fire control systems couldn't compensate and ranged their weapons far ahead of them.

Yah, that's a common oversimplification of what really was the problem. The Germans were never really happy with the fire control directors, with their aft one being unstabilized. As such while weaving to avoid the air attacks their guns were having a hard time tracking the swordfish. Also, two of their main forward AA guns were blocked aft by cranes and didn't have good fire arcs. There is more to the story here but suffice to say, modern systems don't have those sorts of problems with fire control solutions and predictive tracking.

Your not, but it's a factor in defense purchase, I don't expect or want a answer, but can we give full missile loads to all our ships plus 2-3 reloads with our current stock?

Even if I knew I couldn't tell you. Where do you arrive at 2-3 reloads and all ships? There are always going to be at least 4 ships out of rotation because of required work periods, even in wartime ships need to be fixed and refit. And how many missiles are you expecting to expend. For the current ship I have full confidence that the 57mm and CIWS can do the work on loitering munitions even if the ESSMs were to run dry.

CSC however was the original question and that story is still being written.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Yah, that's a common oversimplification of what really was the problem. The Germans were never really happy with the fire control directors, with their aft one being unstabilized. As such while weaving to avoid the air attacks their guns were having a hard time tracking the swordfish. Also, two of their main forward AA guns were blocked aft by cranes and didn't have good fire arcs. There is more to the story here but suffice to say, modern systems don't have those sorts of problems with fire control solutions and predictive tracking.

Even if I knew I couldn't tell you. Where do you arrive at 2-3 reloads and all ships? There are always going to be at least 4 ships out of rotation because of required work periods, even in wartime ships need to be fixed and refit. And how many missiles are you expecting to expend. For the current ship I have full confidence that the 57mm and CIWS can do the work on loitering munitions even if the ESSMs were to run dry.

CSC however was the original question and that story is still being written.

Assuming a conflict with China, you could be fighting and defending for 6 months against a lot of threats, I suspect that every ship we have will have to go to sea for that time period, I can imagine that much of our fleet would have to provide escorts to vessels going to theatre as well. Spare missiles would likely be shipped to near the theatre and hopefully not sunk along the way or taken out during the reloading phase. I am guessing that they would go with an intense attack in the beginning with less intense but longer period as both side attempt to husband missile stocks. We would learn very quickly if China has built "Q ships" armed with Anti-ship missiles and placed amongst their fishing/dredging fleets.

 

[Underway]

Assuming a conflict with China, you could be fighting and defending for 6 months against a lot of threats, I suspect that every ship we have will have to go to sea for that time period, I can imagine that much of our fleet would have to provide escorts to vessels going to theatre as well. Spare missiles would likely be shipped to near the theatre and hopefully not sunk along the way or taken out during the reloading phase. I am guessing that they would go with an intense attack in the beginning with less intense but longer period as both side attempt to husband missile stocks. We would learn very quickly if China has built "Q ships" armed with Anti-ship missiles and placed amongst their fishing/dredging fleets.

IF China survives the next 10 years (hint, it won't, it's already under collapse, but that's a different conversation) then in any war with them RCN ships will be fully integrated into US Task Groups. We'll just get our missiles from their resupply, pay the cost and carry on. Just like we do for JP5. The reason is that any missile we expend defends the whole Task Group and US ships. So they are happy to share the ammo.

My question was what math did you do, but I understand now you were picking an arbitrary number to make a point about war stocks needing to be robust.

 

[Czech_pivo]

IF China survives the next 10 years (hint, it won't, it's already under collapse, but that's a different conversation) then in any war with them RCN ships will be fully integrated into US Task Groups. We'll just get our missiles from their resupply, pay the cost and carry on. Just like we do for JP5. The reason is that any missile we expend defends the whole Task Group and US ships. So they are happy to share the ammo.

My question was what math did you do, but I understand now you were picking an arbitrary number to make a point about war stocks needing to be robust.

I’d like to know more about your thoughts on why CPC won’t survive the next 10yrs, willing to shed some insight?

 

[Underway]

I’d like to know more about your thoughts on why CPC won’t survive the next 10yrs, willing to shed some insight?

Not on this thread. I derail enough of them already!

 

[Colin Parkinson]

IF China survives the next 10 years (hint, it won't, it's already under collapse, but that's a different conversation) then in any war with them RCN ships will be fully integrated into US Task Groups. We'll just get our missiles from their resupply, pay the cost and carry on. Just like we do for JP5. The reason is that any missile we expend defends the whole Task Group and US ships. So they are happy to share the ammo.

My question was what math did you do, but I understand now you were picking an arbitrary number to make a point about war stocks needing to be robust.

I am guessing a ramp up of attacks on Taiwan for a month, followed by some sort of feint to distract the US/Allies, followed by a direct assault in attempt to get a beachhead, likley with similar results we are seeing now, China has a smallish beachhead, which they are reinforcing using naval and civilian ships, taking heavy causalities, they try to enforce a no-go zone around the island which the US and West are trying to reinforce and resupply. I would estimate a heavy two months of fighting and naval/Air engagements, with 4 further months sporadic fighting as both sides nurse their wounds, losses and attempt to restock high end weapon systems. This is a of course a WAG. China is likley to scale back airborne/airmobile assaults and concentrate on amphibious assaults, accepting heavy initial causalities. I would guess they use their fishing fleets to screen the east coast of Taiwan to report and interfere with the Allies efforts, along with a lot of sub activity.

 

[KevinB]

I am guessing a ramp up of attacks on Taiwan for a month, followed by some sort of feint to distract the US/Allies, followed by a direct assault in attempt to get a beachhead, likley with similar results we are seeing now, China has a smallish beachhead, which they are reinforcing using naval and civilian ships, taking heavy causalities, they try to enforce a no-go zone around the island which the US and West are trying to reinforce and resupply. I would estimate a heavy two months of fighting and naval/Air engagements, with 4 further months sporadic fighting as both sides nurse their wounds, losses and attempt to restock high end weapon systems. This is a of course a WAG. China is likley to scale back airborne/airmobile assaults and concentrate on amphibious assaults, accepting heavy initial causalities. I would guess they use their fishing fleets to screen the east coast of Taiwan to report and interfere with the Allies efforts, along with a lot of sub activity.

China just got a first hand look at the fact NATO C4ISR and weapons let the Ukrainian Army lay a pretty rough shellacking on Russia.
Taiwan is a much tougher nut, China knows that.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Logic would dictate that Argentina did not need to invade the Falklands, or Saddam invading Kuwait. Nor is there any western logic to the attack on Ukraine. Who knows how far Xi and his followers are willing to go, it's pretty clear that causalities are not a huge concern. I do wish we had some CSC already in the fleet, they would be very useful in such a conflict.

 

[Underway]

China just got a first hand look at the fact NATO C4ISR and weapons let the Ukrainian Army lay a pretty rough shellacking on Russia.
Taiwan is a much tougher nut, China knows that.

That's not what scares China (though their timelines for "taking Taiwan" may have been extended). The brutal, comprehensive, and punishing sanctions scare China. 80% of China's economy is dependent on value-added trade with the West. They are seeing a first-hand demonstration that the world will not ignore them going into Taiwan, place some pretend sanctions, and move on. The West has demonstrated that we are willing to take some economic pain ourselves to make a point. If China cannot afford to import food, fertilizer, or oil the game is over. 500 million starve to death in the first year.

This is why I'm not worried about China aside from perhaps a single naval battle. As soon as the US decides you are not on their side they will ice cream scoop you out of globalization, and no one relies on globalization more than China does. China knows it now more than ever.

 

[Spencer100]

That's not what scares China (though their timelines for "taking Taiwan" may have been extended). The brutal, comprehensive, and punishing sanctions scare China. 80% of China's economy is dependent on value-added trade with the West. They are seeing a first-hand demonstration that the world will not ignore them going into Taiwan, place some pretend sanctions, and move on. The West has demonstrated that we are willing to take some economic pain ourselves to make a point. If China cannot afford to import food, fertilizer, or oil the game is over. 500 million starve to death in the first year.

This is why I'm not worried about China aside from perhaps a single naval battle. As soon as the US decides you are not on their side they will ice cream scoop you out of globalization, and no one relies on globalization more than China does. China knows it now more than ever.

Great points.

But China does have a much larger "fifth column" in the west than Russia. Plus when the phones stop working and the power is down in North America I don't think the US has the stomach for a conflict. The CCP will be using the Ukraine war as a learning operation and retool. I am sure they are looking at all the Russian weapons and saying we need to look at this system closely. Some of the weapons in themselves are not bad its the user.

 

[KevinB]

Great points.

But China does have a much larger "fifth column" in the west than Russia. Plus when the phones stop working and the power is down in North America I don't think the US has the stomach for a conflict. The CCP will be using the Ukraine war as a learning operation and retool. I am sure they are looking at all the Russian weapons and saying we need to look at this system closely. Some of the weapons in themselves are not bad its the user.

China has always played the long game.
They tend to prefer economic strategies backed up by the Military as opposed to overt Military action.

They aren’t even real Communists anymore. They are more autocratic capitalists in their actual workings. They have learned what the real measure of power is in the world, defended economic might.

 

[Czech_pivo]

China just got a first hand look at the fact NATO C4ISR and weapons let the Ukrainian Army lay a pretty rough shellacking on Russia.
Taiwan is a much tougher nut, China knows that.

The Taiwanese are on a fricking island - there is no border with Poland et al to send their women and children, its a death match. If you're on the island, you'll either live or die on the island.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The Taiwanese are on a fricking island - there is no border with Poland et al to send their women and children, its a death match. If you're on the island, you'll either live or die on the island.

Which is a both a good thing and bad thing. Likely Taiwan would have month to evacuate citizens, mainly women, children and ones needing higher care. One would hope that governments both there and abroad will have at least tabletopped this one, but I doubt it. I don't see any attempt in the next 5 years possibly ten as they digest the lessons from the current conflict and implement them. So if we are lucky we have at least one CSC in the water and 1-2 AOR's and hopefully stationed in the Pacific, with another partly built. How many Halifax's we have operational at that time, who knows?

 

[Underway]

Great points.

But China does have a much larger "fifth column" in the west than Russia. Plus when the phones stop working and the power is down in North America I don't think the US has the stomach for a conflict. The CCP will be using the Ukraine war as a learning operation and retool. I am sure they are looking at all the Russian weapons and saying we need to look at this system closely. Some of the weapons in themselves are not bad its the user.

What does the US do when you screw with them? They hysterically over-react with no sense of scale or proportion. Hitting the US with domestic China-linked "terrorism" is quite literally game over for China.

I don't believe for a second that China has a big 5th Column in the "west" that is willing to do physical damage, nor if they did they have anything close to resembling the capacity to do so. They are like the French. All about stealing industrial secrets and technology.

 

[Weinie]

What does the US do when you screw with them? They hysterically over-react with no sense of scale or proportion. Hitting the US with domestic China-linked "terrorism" is quite literally game over for China.

I don't believe for a second that China has a big 5th Column in the "west" that is willing to do physical damage, nor if they did they have anything close to resembling the capacity to do so. They are like the French. All about stealing industrial secrets and technology.

Nice to be on the same side/continent as them.