Canadian police need more armour & firepower. The CF should not be needed to support.

[Sheerin]

If you want to start a debate fine, but back up you statements.  It is not good enough to just say you don't like the military getting involved in civy stuff.

Which I intend to do once i get back to my computer in Peterborough. 

I also believe during WWI we set up concentrations camps for Germans and other enemies at the time, I'll have to re-check my sources on that one though so give me a few days. 

PBI, would you mind waiting about 24 hours so I get my ducks in a line? 

- Thanks.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

Couldn't resist adding to this one, if only to expand on what PBI says.

I have - at various times - been heavily involved in providing military support to civilian agencies.  There is a difference between the provision of emergency support to a province and the conduct of "Aid to the Civil Power" operations.

An Army Area Commander can provide emergency support to a province at that province's request without recourse to higher authority.  This is what happened during the BC fires in 2003.  We launched on BGen Fenton's authority.  Throughout that operation (OP PEREGRINE), we constantly demanded that BC assure us that all civilian resources had been exhausted and that there was a genuine threat to life and limb.  "Last in, first out" was a mantra echoed by the entire chain of command.  BC was also told, in no uncertain terms, that they were picking up the bill.  When the situation was well in hand, we pulled out.

This is different from support to policing agencies.  Again during PEREGRINE, we received several requests to conduct traffic control or (unarmed) neighbourhood patrolling.  This became a very sensitive subject, because it would have required CF pers to act in a policing role - definitely "Aid to the Civil Power".  In these instances, we reminded the province that an ACP request would have to be made officially from BC to the Federal Solicitor General, who then would approve the request and ask that DND provide the resources.  An ACP request was never made.  ACP requests can be processed very quickly, though, and there are examples of where the CF has reacted on very short notice to support the police - again "last in, first out" and as the force of absolute last resort.

All this to say that there is a difference between emergency CF assistance during a domestic disaster/situation and actual policing.  The latter is comparatively rare, although there are some "standard" things the CF does that I won't get into here.

also believe during WWI we set up concentrations camps for Germans and other enemies at the time, I'll have to re-check my sources on that one though so give me a few days.

Different situation entirely - wartime, War Measures Act in effect, and (I believe) Enemy Aliens legislation.

TR

 

[mainerjohnthomas]

I can't believe there is even anyone questioning military involvement in a matter like this.   You can bet your *** if one of YOU went down, and I was around, I would be there.   The only difference in us is that my uniform is blue and yours is green.   The military was called in for support, not a Police action.   And when I was in, I would not have thought twice about taking my AFV or rifle in to get downed officers.  

What I don't think anyone realizes is that it takes time to mobilize an ERT team.   They don't work 24/7, they are on call.   And for that very reason, members SHOULD be issued with, and train regularly with tactical weapons.   The shotgun may not always be an appropriate choice for the situation.   We have been arguing this point for years.   Most US Police agencies have three gun availability.   Pistol, shotgun, and a carbine or rifle of some sort.   And even if they were in the trunk, their mere presence might have made the difference.   There has been many a discussion about Active Shooter Teams, small groups of members who would be given basic tactical entry and search techniques, and the tools to do it, maybe now is a good time for it.   Coming from a guy who has been on both sides of the green/blue uniform, I am here to tell you it takes just one rifle to be in a house and WE ARE OUTGUNNED!    

I'm sorry if this reply comes off as aggressive, but I just lost four co-workers.   Before you get all worked up about my comments, think back to how YOU felt, when you lost four brother's in arms over an errant bomb.
      Have any of you ever taken a serious look at the pretty display of weapons taken from some of these grow ops?  I have seen more assault rifles, submachine guns, light machine guns, high powered heavy caliber hunting rifles, than I expected to see in my whole town seized from a single house in my commuity recently.  Recently, the courts have overturned a grow op conviction because the officers failed to allow the drug dealers a minute to come to the door when summoned by the police.  That means every time they go to serve a warrant on a person known to be armed and dangerous, they get to stand in front of the door in plain sight, and hope to hell it goes well.  They have got brass balls you have to use two hands to hold.  They do need to be upgunned, because the people they are trying to arrest already are.  They do need to know, it areas that do not have signifigant ERT assets, that they can call for CF support, and we will come, at the run, with the armour and weapons to cover them when things have got out of control.  I remember Oka, and this is no different.  The police need weapon options to allow them to respond to the threats they can resonably be expected to face, and the training to use them.  They also need to know that we stand behind them, with whatever weapons required, for those occasions that the police cannot handle.  If the Canadian public likes to beleive that's overkill, then let the next complainer stand in front of the grow op door, and serve the warrant.

 

[MPIKE]

Point taken - I even made reference to lack of credibility anecdotal evidence has in my post.  However, i feel my ideas have been well, misunderstood, mostly because i wasn't very clear in my posts as well as a myriad of other reasons.
I used the anecdotal evidence to illustrate my concerns about training, I personally feel 1 day a year is not adequate for a hand gun, and it most certainly would not be enough for military-esque weapons.  If these weapons are introduced, as a citizen, I would want to them to get as much training as humanly possible with them.  I would certainly hope that most forces have their officers on the firing range more than once a year, perhaps someone here could let us, well me, know how many days of training the get with live ammunition

Well, I'm not about to discuss Training Requirements and Practices in a public forum but be rest assured that every officer is held to a standard before being allowed to hit the road again each year.  Whether uniform police should have rifles as an Use of Force option ?..  that's a thread in itself..and Blackhorse7 has "summed it up"...

It would be prudent to keep our green hats on and stick with the army banter?

As for calling me ignorant, I say this

Sheerin,  Just to clarify...not the person but the words used were just a little offside...

This would be the point where we break off to FGH_Recce_DJ's "Canadian Forces used to aid the civil power in whatever situation may arise" thread ?? Which, I believe has split the Use of Force Options talk with the Aide to Civil Power action? (but I'm just the new boot to the forum SOPs)

Piker

 

[pbi]

It would be prudent to keep our green hats on and stick with the army banter?

Not necessarily: it depends on your background. I have had enough dealings with various civil police forces in different types of Dom Ops (as have some others here such as Teddy...) that I don't feel uncomfortable talking about that sort of thing. My experience has mostly been at the planner/commander level of the different forces, so I have seen some of the serious problems that our police forces (including the RCMP...) have in trying to mount large, comlex operations. I can certainly talk about that, all day. On the other hand, I have had very limited contact with the actual process of training individual police constables, so I don't feel too competent speaking about that, and I would defer immediately to Black Horse, Potcullis Guy, or others with current LEA experience.

Cheers.

 

[obsidian]

Ok I'm new here and this is my first post but I'll jump right in.  I was part of the IRU that was called out with the armoured vehicle.  It was a Coyote and the whole point of the callout was because the RCMP thought the shooter had escaped into the woods.  We were going to set up our Surv gear and look for him.  When it was determined that he was still inside the hut, we were going to ram it and make a hole for the "swat" team.  As it turned out, none of that was necessary. 

I think most of the posts are missing the point though.  The RCMP does have a tactical team.  They do have surveillance capabilities.  but not in MAYERTHORPE Alberta.  Why would they need it there?  It is completely impractical to think the RCMP should have that sort of capability in their rural or remote detachments.  Major centres yes.  Rural Alberta?  No.  The idea of regional swat teams is a good one though.  The bottom line is that the RCMP didn't call the CF because they couldn't handle the situation, they did it because we were the closest asset available to them.  Period.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I thought this info was classified from Kevin B?

 

[Cloud Cover]

The Coyote was clearly on the news. As for the rest, who knows.

 

[mainerjohnthomas]

Ok I'm new here and this is my first post but I'll jump right in.   I was part of the IRU that was called out with the armoured vehicle.   It was a Coyote and the whole point of the callout was because the RCMP thought the shooter had escaped into the woods.   We were going to set up our Surv gear and look for him.   When it was determined that he was still inside the hut, we were going to ram it and make a hole for the "swat" team.   As it turned out, none of that was necessary.  

I think most of the posts are missing the point though.   The RCMP does have a tactical team.   They do have surveillance capabilities.   but not in MAYERTHORPE Alberta.   Why would they need it there?   It is completely impractical to think the RCMP should have that sort of capability in their rural or remote detachments.   Major centres yes.   Rural Alberta?   No.   The idea of regional swat teams is a good one though.   The bottom line is that the RCMP didn't call the CF because they couldn't handle the situation, they did it because we were the closest asset available to them.   Period.

    Thanks for the update.  It sounds like the RCMP and CF are both doing their jobs by the numbers.  Now if the reporters would just shut up long enough to hear a fact once in a while, the whole media frenzy would go back to resembling news, rather than the clusterfrag it is now.  If we have an asset that can assist, then it is the RCMP's duty to ask, so that we can respond.  Cudo's to all involved, and sincerest respects to those who fell in the doing.

 

[couchcommander]

The following is my uninformed OPINION as a civvie living in Canada,

I have the utmost respect for the CF, and I must say IMO if the police or any other organization EVER feels they do not have a handel on the situation I would hope that they do not hesitate and call in the CF for support. You guys are a highly trained, capable, and I might add expensive asset that should be used whenever it is felt you can help the situation, minus all of the political bull, interservice rivalry, and people who get upset when guys (and girls) with large guns and a uniform show up (something I never understood... those large guns are there to PROTECT the people who are getting all upset....*shakes head*). The forces recent history in dealing with domestic problems has been excellent, something that you should all be proud of. You guys are here to help, and should be used as such.

I must say that I feel a lot more safe and secure living here in Edmonton knowing there is a brigade around, incase the sh*t hits the fan, than I did in other parts of the country.

And indeed mainerjohnthomas. The journalists should get back to reporting the news like they are supposed to.

 

[rangers]

the cops should be able to help the selfves with having to get us to come in to take car of a riot. thats not our job. our job is to protect cananda in all forms, not help police forces. [post edited to remove insulting phrase.  Member also put on warning]

 

[George Wallace]

the cops should be able to help the selfves with having to get us to come in to take car of a riot. thats not our job. our job is to protect cananda in all forms, not help police forces

Grammar!

Spelling!

What are you trying to say?  Do you want the police to drive cars into riots?  The Army was called out to help Farmers save their pigs and cattle during the floods in Manitoba and the Ice Storm in Eastern Ontario/Quebec, so it is not new for the CF to protect/save farm animals.

GW

 

[pbi]

The following is my uninformed OPINION as a civvie living in Canada,

I have the utmost respect for the CF, and I must say IMO if the police or any other organization EVER feels they do not have a handel on the situation I would hope that they do not hesitate and call in the CF for support. You guys are a highly trained, capable, and I might add expensive asset that should be used whenever it is felt you can help the situation, minus all of the political bull, interservice rivalry, and people who get upset when guys (and girls) with large guns and a uniform show up (something I never understood... those large guns are there to PROTECT the people who are getting all upset....*shakes head*). The forces recent history in dealing with domestic problems has been excellent, something that you should all be proud of. You guys are here to help, and should be used as such.

I must say that I feel a lot more safe and secure living here in Edmonton knowing there is a brigade around, incase the sh*t hits the fan, than I did in other parts of the country.

And indeed mainerjohnthomas. The journalists should get back to reporting the news like they are supposed to.

couchcommander: Thanks for the vote of confidence: your support is much appreciated.

Unfortunately, I have to disagree with you about the freedom of civil authorities to call on the military for assistance. For a number of reasons there have to be reasonable limits placed on this freedom. I can assure you, from quite a bit of experience in dealing with various civil agencies (and not just police services...) that too many of them see us as " Kit R Us" or a free labour pool. Some of them are quite indignant when told we have other things we are supposed to be doing, or that we are not allowed to compete with private business.
Some of the requests I have personally been involved in shutting down over the years included:

-demolishing old buildings (for free, of course);
-guarding a rock concert;
-storing building materials for a contractor;
-firing a .50 cal HMG into a clogged industrial conduit system;
-providing a military vehicle to lead a Gay Pride parade;
-putting up tents for municipal festival; and
-distributing parking tickets.

Our assistance needs to be confined to those situations(like Rochefort Bridge) in which clearly we are the only ones who have a resource (fewer and fewer these days) or at such times as civil authorities have exhausted their own resources and there is no alternative. Otherwise, believe me, our already thin resources will be stretched beyond what they are now.

Thanks for your support otherwise.

Cheers

 

[couchcommander]

Oh dear, yea I was not referring to meanial tasks, and I 100% agree that these type of things are not something that the military should be called in to help with. What I meant was situations where there is a serious threat to life, limb, etc. and the civil powers can't adequately deal with it; whether it be a natural disaster or a horrible crime, and further simply that they should not hesitate to call you in these circumstances.

 

[Wizard of OZ]

Thanks for the update.  It sounds like the RCMP and CF are both doing their jobs by the numbers.  Now if the reporters would just shut up long enough to hear a fact once in a while, the whole media frenzy would go back to resembling news, rather than the clusterfrag it is now.  If we have an asset that can assist, then it is the RCMP's duty to ask, so that we can respond.  Cudo's to all involved, and sincerest respects to those who fell in the doing.

You don't really think that will ever happen do you?

That would mean reporters would have to stop reporting opinion and start reporting fact.  That is crazy talk.

 

[Blackhorse7]

What happened to fgh recce's comments that were on the site earlier in response to the callous and ill timed comments made by Rangers?  I would like to read them, if they have been moved somewhere.  And Rangers?  You better think twice about making remarks such as you did in here earlier.  Not only do you make yourself out to sound like an idiot, but you piss off a lot of people who may be mourning.  Here's a tip.  Count to ten next time you feel like typing something, and if at the end of that your comments still come out offensive and rude, keep them to your damned self.

 

[FGH_Recce_DJ]

Hmmmmmm i couldn't have said it better myself, yes i may have over stepped the line a little but hey as you said we are all in mourning, some more than others, Cheers brother!!!

 

[Lost_Warrior]

This might be a bit off topic, but has there been any word on whuch CF unit was called up for support?  Were they a reserve or reg force unit?

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

It would not have been a Res unit as Res pers cannot be used for ALEA (Assistance to Law Enforcement Agencies) without Cabinet approval and (basically) mobilization.  Note, as PBI and I have both stated, that ALEA is different from support to a civil emergency.

Obsidian posted some information above that would allow one to make a guess as to what unit was involved, but I'm not going there.

TR

 

[Slim]

This might be a bit off topic, but has there been any word on whuch CF unit was called up for support?   Were they a reserve or reg force unit?

I believe that someone said its not to be spoken about as it's classified. We as a forum should work very hard to respect that edict.

Slim