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Canadian Military involvment in Iraq, and Canadian political support. - The Canadian Forces going to Iraq?

The first link is old news to which the PM has already responded to by saying no troops in Iraq.  Jordan maybe but not Iraq.

The second link was not working when i tried maybe my computer did not like it but i could not read it at all.
 
Hmm...they must of pulled it, because it pretty much ok'd all NCM's & Officers of Reg & Reserve Force going to Iraq under (what I think) is the disguise of NATO commitments.
 
Infanteer said:
Glorified Ape, I've read your reply and I could attempt a point-by-point rebuttal, but I'm not going to - all it will do is extend the exasperating tit-for-tat spiel that has been running on this forum for years now.   Rather, I'm going to offer an observation and a bit of a challenge.

As I read your post, I pick up a tone of argument through your use of terms like "sociopathic" and "sustaining hegemonic status" that seems to indicate that you believe that the US is making a desperate bid to shore up its status as Global Superpower.   As well, you constantly appeal to notions of "consensus" and "global governance" which, although sounding nice and fluffy, have never been a serious factor in the conduct of nations since the Peace of Westphalia (even the Concert of Europe was fraught with intrigue, interest, and revolution).   heck, none of the Allies could even gather a consensus on how to defeat Fascism in WWII and what to do when that was done - I could see the an internet thread in 1945 debating Churchill's staunch realism vs. Roosevelt's hopeful idealism (which was manipulated by Stalin's totalitarian paranoia).

I will assert that Iraq must be viewed agianst the general backdrop of US involvement in the Middle East.   It, like the "War on Terror", must be viewed as a whole.   I do not believe Iraq is merely an independant effort by the United States to grab power and prop up its Hegemonic status; this status was assured when the Taman Guards chose to not crush the Muscovites marching in the streets and I contend that American strength, regardless of Iraq, will be unrivaled for at least the next few decades - the preponderance in all facets of strength (military, economic, cultural, digital) point to this.  

Ratherl, I believe America (along with its Allies) have gone into Iraq to decisively engaging themselves in the Middle East for the same reason they decisively engaged themselves in Europe following WWII - it was in their interest (and the interest of other liberal democracies) to curb the rise of ideological terrorism, only now Bolshevism has been replaced with xenophobic Fundamentalism which, since the withdrawl of the Soviets from the Middle East, is feeding off of people who live in squalor and destitution under tin-pot regimes.   Iraq, like Guadalcanal or North Africa, is merely one set of battles in a grand campaign to deal with a world-view that is fundamentally opposed to the very principles that we have thrived under.

To paraphrase Lord Palmerston, "States don't have friends, they have interests".   Canada should not occupy itself with seeking "friends" through its "reputation"; this will only serve to have our "Soft Power" crumble when others choose to serve their interest over "friendship" with us.   I believe it is in our interest to strategically commit ourselves to the Middle East - not through back room deals and political back-scratching as the French, Russians, and Chinese have been prone to do, but rather along with the Americans and British to effect decisive change in behaviours and attitudes.   Whether this means mere political support or a small troop commitment is not important, only that we recognize that we must exercise our influence at the center of Dar-al-Islam lest Western influence in the area takes a dramatic turn for the worse and we risk being held for ransom by politically hostile actors.

Here is my outlook on the American effort in Iraq that I have pasted from another forum.   Read it if you want.   Hopefully, it may provide a different approach to interpreting events in the Middle East.   If you still wish to argue rabid and sociopathic imperialism, then go for it - but the disjointed arguments for this approach (oil, Bush, racism, failing economy) don't seem to add up.

Omg Infanteer you just posted what I have been saying even before the war officially began. Finally I found someone who agrees that Iraq, militarily speaking, was the perfect place to strike within the middle east.  Not only did it possess a very weak regime with a dictator, who like you said, was at the end of his reign.  It also possesses access to the Gulf and is smack in the middle of the Middle East (linked to Iran, Turkey, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Syria).  Basically with the US in possession of this land they now are firmly entrenched in the middle east.  They have a funnel to ship future troops into the Mid East through, they are smack in the center, they have a large number of forces in the area, basically they now possess the upper hand atleast from a military standpoint. 

But on to the topic currently being debated.  Canadian involvement in Iraq.  Although I do believe it would be in our nations best interests to go into iraq it will never happen for these reasons:

1.  Sending troops to Iraq would be political suicide for the minority Liberal party.
2.  Our military is overstretched as it is, sending torops to iraq would further reduce its capability.

 
National Post today reports on Canadian trainers that have been working with NATO since August and training Iraqi trainers in Baghdad.

What was that we weren't going to do again? ???

Je suis bien confuseed.
 
Oh but those are officers that were attach posted to American units so they don't count as Canadians. 

Goodness how do they continue to get away with stuff like this. 

 
"Martin officially informed NATO that Canada will send 30 soldiers to Jordan to help train Iraqi soldiers and will contribute $1 million to a NATO fund for training."

http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1109028360111_55?hub=topstories

Martin keeping a low profile at NATO summit
CTV.ca News Staff

Prime Minister Paul Martin sounded a diplomatic note in reacting to U.S. President George W. Bush's reaching-out speech to NATO.

"I thought it was a very positive speech,'' he told reporters in Brussels on Monday. "But, I also think he echoed the view of a lot of us that there are a lot of issues which we've got to discuss in depth."

Martin also talked of a "rejuvenated NATO, one that is not simply a military alliance, one that has a political role to play."

On balance, Martin appeared to be keeping a low profile at the meeting, although he did meet privately with the prime minister of Belgium and the secretary-general of NATO.

Martin officially informed NATO that Canada will send 30 soldiers to Jordan to help train Iraqi soldiers and will contribute $1 million to a NATO fund for training.

"We also talked about the future of the NATO alliance and how important it is in making sure that the trans-Atlantic alliance is strong," he said.

Prior to the conference, Foreign Affairs Canada officials had been touting Canada's role as a bridge between Europe and the United States, the world's only military superpower.

However, Martin had no bilateral meetings with any of the more outspoken opponents of U.S. foreign policy -- particularly the war in Iraq.

Despite the lack of activity, Foreign Affairs Minister Pierre Pettigrew insisted Canada was still playing an important role.

"The role of interpreting Europe to the U.S and interpreting the U.S. to Europe is something that as something that as Foreign Minister and as Canadian diplomats, do very constructively all the time," he told reporters.

On Tuesday, Martin will join the summit of all NATO leaders.

On Wednesday, when the federal budget is delivered, CTV's David Akin reports that the Liberal government is expected to raise the defence budget by $1-billion annually.

Mr. Dithers

Opposition party MPs were delighted last week when the influential British publication the Economist described Martin as Mr. Dithers, saying he wasn't showing strong leadership.

Cabinet ministers indignantly defended their boss and a new Ipsos-Reid poll for CTV and the Globe and Mail had Canadians giving Martin a 56 per cent approval rating.

"I always liked the guy, but that isn't what this is all about," said Martin on Monday, referring to the boss character from the cartoon strip Blondie.

Any further questions were deflected, with Martin saying he was there to speak about the future of the transatlantic alliance.

But in Parliament's question period, the opposition continued with the dithering shots, working the term into three different defence-related questions.

With a report from CTV's David Akin and files from The Canadian Press
 
CFL said:
"Martin officially informed NATO that Canada will send 30 soldiers to Jordan to help train Iraqi soldiers and will contribute $1 million to a NATO fund for training."

30 troops and a million dollars . . . wow. The government has really outdone themselves this time with such a massive contibution to a cause that wasn't polictically correct enough to attract the Liberals interest when the bullets were flying.

Guess it'll look good in the Ontario news media though.  :-X
 
MHO is that this is only more Liberal BS with no substance. :rage:

Martin also talked of a "rejuvenated NATO, one that is not simply a military alliance, one that has a political role to play."
So that Canada does not need to meet it NATO commitments?


On balance, Martin appeared to be keeping a low profile at the meeting, although he did meet privately with the prime minister of Belgium and the secretary-general of NATO.

However, Martin had no bilateral meetings with any of the more outspoken opponents of U.S. foreign policy -- particularly the war in Iraq.

Prior to the conference, Foreign Affairs Canada officials had been touting Canada's role as a bridge between Europe and the United States, the world's only military superpower.

If you have next to no bilateral meetings of any consequence how can you be an importantant mediator? ???


"We also talked about the future of the NATO alliance and how important it is in making sure that the trans-Atlantic alliance is strong," he said.

"The role of interpreting Europe to the U.S and interpreting the U.S. to Europe is something that as something that as Foreign Minister and as Canadian diplomats, do very constructively all the time," he told reporters.

Is Canada the only country that can translate English to French? :blotto:

Frankly I do not see a particularly warm relationship between Canada's Liberal's and the US, hence my take that this is spin for the uninitiated. :-[


 
Wizard of OZ said:
Oh but those are officers that were attach posted to American units so they don't count as Canadians.  
Goodness how do they continue to get away with stuff like this.  

Cdn. Officers dont count as canadians...hmm
 
Wizard of OZ said:
Oh but those are officers that were attach posted to American units so they don't count as Canadians.  

Goodness how do they continue to get away with stuff like this.  

I think it comes down to the old political "two step".  If there are no Canadian Military Units deployed in Iraq, then that would be the Government's bottom line.  Does anyone know if the media has ever asked the PM, Foregin Affairs or Defense Minister, the direct question, "Are there any Canadian Military personnel serving with US units in Iraq?" and if so what the response was.
 
But this comes from a long line of Canadian Non-Involvement.

Korea -  Special Service Brigade made up of non-regular volunteers to form 3 new battalions rather than committing regs
WW2 - Volunteers rather than conscripts
WW1 - Volunteers and a brand new army (including the privately raised PPCLI) rather than committing conscripts
Boer War - Volunteers and privately raised Lord Strathcona's
1885 Nile Expedition - Relief of Khartoum - Canadian boatmen chartered to move supplies in support of the Imperial effort.

It was ever thus in Canada -

Every government has danced around the same flaming ELEPHANT in the room.

 
Of crse they dance around it.  If they actually got off their ass and put out the fire they would see that Canadians want a military that is capable of deploying to this places and putting a stop to alot of the crap that is going on.  Iraq maybe not so much because of the bad press but the rebuilding of a nation is something Canada has always contributed to.
 
Wizard of OZ said:
they would see that Canadians want a military that is capable of deploying to this places and putting a stop to alot of the crap that is going on.

Do they? I do, you do and probably most people on this forum do - but ask Johnny Lunchpail where his priorities lie and you'll likely get a different response.   It's going to talk a long time and a supportive media ( ::)) to change attitudes in this nation.
 
Do they? I do, you do and probably most people on this forum do - but ask Johnny Lunchpail where his priorities lie and you'll likely get a different response.  It's going to talk a long time and a supportive media ( ) to change attitudes in this nation.

Of course they do, they don't want us to be war makers but peace keepers and peace makers.  The public loves us when we do something that gives Canada credit.  The Government loves to ship us around the globe to show its commitment to the UN or NATO or whatever the flavour of the month is .  To accomplish this we need to be able to make war though.  I think if we can sell them black we will get to be grey as well.  We have to keep the public happy but we also must remember to continue to train for our real job.
 
The public has to realize that Freedom and Democracy comes at price . Some times you have to stand up for what you believe in most . The Americans need are help we should do are part to  assist them .
 
Here's a press release from the Dutch Ministry of Defence - an example of succinctness, clarity, and "taking ownership" of consequences and the risk to life and limb.


Enduring Freedom
 
 
(Source: Dutch Ministry of Defence; issued Feb. 28, 2005)
 
 
The Netherlands is to contribute 250 troops to Operation Enduring Freedom, the international operation against terrorism in Afghanistan. 

It will send 165 members of a Special Forces taskforce and 85 members of a helicopter detachment plus four Chinook transport helicopters. 

The Special Forces troops will conduct reconnaissance and gather information. They may also engage in combat. 

The mission entails high risks, which the Government finds acceptable in view of the mission's importance


-ends-

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi-bin/client/modele.pl?session=dae.4308111.1089903978.QPadasOa9dUAAESlMZk&modele=jdc_34

It appears that the Dutch politicians have learned much since Srebrenica.

 
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