Canada's purchase of the Leopard 2 MBT

[geo]

... for the CLS to come out in a press conference & bring it out in public (VS private) is something new.  Mind you, it'll be hard to ignore the message that was sent.

 

[dapaterson]

Watching two gunner generals (one serving, one retired) slug it out in public may be amusing to some, but it have long-reaching effects - and not good ones.

 

[McG]

You would have thought that with all those bright minds in Ottawa, they could have figured this out before hand, after all, all we had to do was ask our neighbours to the south for some insight from their experiences in Iraq with their armour.

Our neighbours to the south did not fight with Leopard 2.  Their failure data related to the M1's turbine engines & different electronic systems would not be magically transferable to the vehicle we now have.  To point the I-need-to-blame-somebody finger at Ottawa is unrealistic when our problems have taken the whole Leopard 2 user community by surprise.

This is understandable.  What isn't, is the fact that there are Leo 2s sitting in Montreal for refit and that is not being done.  Someone dropped the ball there.

The refit has not even gone in front of Treasurey Board yet.  There is absolutely nothing the military or PWGSC can do at the moment.  Wait for June.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

... for the CLS to come out in a press conference & bring it out in public (VS private) is something new.  Mind you, it'll be hard to ignore the message that was sent.

Indeed

 

[George Wallace]

Makes sense to me.  Having been exposed as an end user to tanks refitted, refurbished and/or rebuilt in Canada, I think it is a sound plan and very cost effective in the long run.  We can not afford to keep cleaning up faulty or poor workmanship by inexperienced persons just to keep jobs in Canada.  We are in a recession and it is a great savings in Tax dollars to have the job done right the first time by professionals, than two or three times incorrectly by 'amateurs'.

 

[Love793]

I'm sure that Ken Lewenza and the rest of the CAW mafia will be up in arms over this.

 

[Journeyman]

I'm shocked George...simply shocked. You have no faith in the unionized abilities of 'Tanks R Us de Longue-Pointe' to do quality work, on time, on budget? 

No use pork-barreling there anyway; La Pointe-de-l'Île riding voted Bloc, and they wouldn't be grateful for anything the government did, so we may as well get it done right the first time.

 

[The_Dictat]

I go through the Workshop everyday.  I am always amazed by all the kinds of parts they make there.  But it does show that the spare parts supply chain from the original manufacturer is really broken.

As for companies in Canada able to do the work,  Rheinmetall bought Oerlikon in St-Jean.  Perhaps they will retool it for Leo 2 maintenance and refurb.

Cheers

 

[Jarnhamar]

Makes sense to me.  Having been exposed as an end user to tanks refitted, refurbished and/or rebuilt in Canada, I think it is a sound plan and very cost effective in the long run.  We can not afford to keep cleaning up faulty or poor workmanship by inexperienced persons just to keep jobs in Canada.  We are in a recession and it is a great savings in Tax dollars to have the job done right the first time by professionals, than two or three times incorrectly by 'amateurs'.

Well said George!

 

[geo]

I don't think Longue Pointe has anything to do with it.

Public Works & DND tendering has taken forever to get the Leo2s delivered to Canada & upgraded.  To date, there are no contenders to do the job NOW.  Given that that there are no viable contenders NOW, when we need the vehicles NOW, there is only one option.... Having the vehicles upgraded in Germany, by the original manufacturer, NOW.

 

[Franko]

As for companies in Canada able to do the work,  Rheinmetall bought Oerlikon in St-Jean.  Perhaps they will retool it for Leo 2 maintenance and refurb.

Rheinmetall is not allowed to work on Leo 2 chassis or turrets, only guns.

Personally I'd rather the Germans working on them and not 202 Paint Shop, having been on the recieving end of their "craftmanship" in the past. Engines being shipped out without pistons in them. Radiators still leaking and only painted....the list is almost endless.

Nope, prefer German expertise working and refurbishing tanks that I have to trust with my and my crew's lives. They both have the knowledge, know-how and dedication to ensure that quality is maintained.

Regards

 

[Colin Parkinson]

We had a 105 howizter delievered from them after the rebuild from C1 to C2, the recoil system failed during firing, luckily while returning to battery, although the gun shoved it's muzzle into the dirt and the trails sticking up in the sky like a 2 dollar hooker's legs. We were in Shilo for black bear at the time, took the gun to the plumbers and helped them strip it down, there was metal shavings in the recoil system that got caught in the seals that had cut grooves into the cylinder wall. It was a good year before we saw that gun again.

 

[George Wallace]

I don't think Longue Pointe has anything to do with it.

Excuse me!

When we strip down and replace all worn parts on a Leo to send off to Mtl to be rebuilt and get worn, rusted and broken parts back, I would definitely say that there is something wrong with Longue Pointe.  Brand New Track and Pads do not turn into stretched and heavily worn track and pads on a rebuilt.

We did an acceptance inspection of a Leo when it arrived back to the Sqn.  When the Power Pack was raised above the backdeck the ET yelled "STOP!" before it could be swung over the side.  Daylight was visible between the engine and transmission where there should have been none.  There was one inch of metal holding the two halves of the Power Pack together.

Wrong lubricants, metal filings, .......The list can go on. 

Perhaps there is a saboteur at work in 202 Workshops ?

 

[Dissident]

Engines being shipped out without pistons in them. Radiators still leaking and only painted....the list is almost endless.

I says pardon!?

 

[421 EME]

I remember doing acceptance inspections on Cougars turrets that where refurbished at 202 Workshop, and they need more work on them after refurbishment then before. Yeah they had a great paint job but that was it. The job that they did was crap.
Now, the LAV III's that we are getting back from refurbishment from GDLS in Ed are almost like brandnew. My hats off to GDLS in Ed, they do the job the right way. 

 

[geo]

Excuse me!

The point I was making is that Longue Pointe was not in the running for doing the work.  This was supposed to be going out to a public tender - through the services of Public Works Canada.

Longue Pointe has nothing to do with this..... (this time!)

Am not particularly pro OR con Longue Pointe & 202 Workshop... though I should point out that, given the last CDS' position on the Leopard.... IE that it was going to be disposed of & replaced by something akin to a LAV... IE the MGS. 

It is obvious that, given our dwindeling interest in Tanks might have had something to do with the loss of expertise in Civy & Military personnel knowing the difference between the front & rear end of a Tank.

 

[McG]

Rheinmetall is not allowed to work on Leo 2 chassis or turrets, only guns.

Maybe in Europe.  For North America, your statement is incorrect.  In fact, I believe there is a Rheinmetall agreement with KMW that they should do the work if it is done in Canada.

MCG's prediction:  The government sticks to its 'all work in Canada' promise in order to avoid embarrassment.  We see Rheinmetall win the competition & take a year to build the line and train workers.  We then see all work completed two years after that.  The plant, at this point now without enough work to keep itself open, pleading with the government for something so that its employees do not all loose their jobs.  Throwing them a bone, the government directs DND to upgrade to the training tanks to operational standard &  to fund it by cutting the money out of our existing budget.  Another year later, all tanks are upgraded to Canadian Op Stock standard, the line is close (all employees out of work), and the CF is without some critical capability because the money was spent on a make employment project with the training tanks.

 

[Kat Stevens]

The point I was making is that Longue Pointe was not in the running for doing the work.  This was supposed to be going out to a public tender - through the services of Public Works Canada.

Longue Pointe has nothing to do with this..... (this time!)

Am not particularly pro OR con Longue Pointe & 202 Workshop... though I should point out that, given the last CDS' position on the Leopard.... IE that it was going to be disposed of & replaced by something akin to a LAV... IE the MGS. 

It is obvious that, given our dwindeling interest in Tanks might have had something to do with the loss of expertise in Civy & Military personnel knowing the difference between the front & rear end of a Tank.

That's a load.  There have been Leo chassis of one sort or another in Canada since the 70s, and 202 has never got a refurb right yet.

 

[geo]

Kat,
Not arguing with you.
Canada hasn't demonstrated much interests in tanks over the last many years... regardless of the some sort or another.

During the time of CFEurope, most all tanks were kept in Germany - with some in Gagetown.
When CFEurope was shut down, the Leo C2s were distributed (for a short little while) across the country... without any critical mass... then were "all" scooped up and sent to Wainwright - bleak prospects for the Tanks at that time.

It takes a long time to develop the expertise to maintain something like the Leo2 & given the hot/cold/hotitude we gave the Leo C2s over the years, I am not at all surprised we have reached the point where we couldn't / can't support ourlesves.

 

[The Bread Guy]

1)  From the latest CF Backgrounder on the Leopard purchase:

(....) Phase 2 – Repair/Upgrades

The extension of the Afghan mission from 2009 until 2011, announced in March 2008, created a need to rotate the 20 Leopard 2A6s currently used in theatre.  The 20 tanks have been serving in the harsh Afghan conditions for the last two years and as such, they are scheduled to be rotated out of theatre in 2010 for repair and overhaul.

The original equipment manufacturer, Krauss Maffei-Wegmann of Germany, was contracted to conduct the urgent repair and overhaul and upgrade work.  This urgent contract, valued at $86.9 million (CAD), was awarded in June 2009 to Krauss Maffei-Wegmann.

Krauss Maffei-Wegmann will perform repair and overhaul and essential, specific Canadian mission upgrades to 20 of the Leopard 2 A4 tanks acquired from the Netherlands, still located in a climate-controlled facility in the Netherlands.  The immediate repair and overhaul will be conducted at Krauss Maffei-Wegmann’s facilities in Germany.  From Germany, the 20 tanks will be deployed to Afghanistan in 2010.

The Industrial and Regional Benefits Policy applies to all Phase 2 contracts, including the two contracts awarded to Krauss Maffei-Wegmann.  This means that the company must generate one dollar of economic activity in Canada for every dollar of their contract.

Phase 2 of the Tank Replacement Project also presents excellent opportunities for Canadian industry.  Contracts will be competed for the repair, overhaul and conversion of up to 50 tanks purchased from the Netherlands, and the repair and overhaul of the former German tanks being rotated out of Afghanistan.  Furthermore, in-service support for the tanks will be required for the next 30 years, which Canadian industry will have the opportunity to provide.

(....)

When completed, the Canadian Forces Leopard 2 fleet of 100 tanks will be made up of the following:
    * 40 tanks for use on operations (2 squadrons)
    * 42 tanks for use in training in Canada (2 squadrons)
    * 8 Armoured Recovery Vehicles (“tow-trucks” for tanks)
    * 10 additional tanks for use in force mobility

2)  From MERX:

.... The Department of National Defence (DND) has a requirement for the Repair and Overhaul (R&O) of 42 Leopard 2 A4 Training Tanks (Leo 2 A4 Trg Tanks) to return them to serviceability. The Work will consist of, without being limited to, Engineering Change Proposals (ECPs), testing of the turret and chassis, R&O Work of critical components, and Integrated Logistics Support (ILS). The expected minimal throughput for this R&O program is six (6) Leo 2 A4 Trg Tanks every three (3) months starting one (1) year after Contract award.

A mandatory bidders' conference and vehicle viewing will take place in Montreal, Canada, Monday, 14 December, 2009 to Thursday, 17 December, 2009. Failure to attend the bidder's conference and vehicle viewing will render bidders non-responsive ....