Canada's purchase of the Leopard 2 MBT

[observor 69]

Ah!  Michael Wallace, close compatriot of Steven Staples, has reared his ugly little head.  (I wonder if I can sue him for defamation of character and the "Wallace" name.)  It is, as was stated in an earlier post, a shame that these characters can twist facts to their bidding to present a picture that seems plausible, yet is completely out to lunch.  If we took his piece and did some changes, we could just as easily be comparing Street Gangs in Toronto, with their Glocks, AKs, PPKs, etc., going against the Metro Police.  These guys are the Fifth Column.  They are distorting facts to fit their agenda.  Unfortunately, other than people on this site, who is to disprove them?  Steven Staples even frequents this site, as I am sure, do many of the others we have commented on, just to test the waters and get more facts to bend.  They lies to the Canadian public are a slap in the face to "Responsible Journalism".

OK George as a blue job I am obviously out of my lane of this topic but how do you defend against being ganged up on by a bunch of RPG-29's?

A friend of mine is a WWII  RCD vet who crewed Staghounds. He mentioned to me last week, in light of the new Leos for Afghanistan, that in his experience the first thing he would attack would be the bogey wheels. They used to immobilize German armour and then it was vulnerable.

 

[tomahawk6]

Looks like the CF has worked out a deal with Germany for 20 Leopard 2A6M for use in Afghanistan as these tanks have air conditioning and other improvements which will make it a more desireable system.Total buy may be 80 tanks.

 

[geo]

Badenguy...

Wire mesh cages are being used by the US in Iraq on the Strykers (amongst others) for this particular reason.  The intent is to detonate the RPG warhead away from the vehicle.

As far as I know, this system does work - at least they're still using it.

 

[George Wallace]

OK George as a blue job I am obviously out of my lane of this topic but how do you defend against being ganged up on by a bunch of RPG-29's?

A friend of mine is a WWII  RCD vet who crewed Staghounds. He mentioned to me last week, in light of the new Leos for Afghanistan, that in his experience the first thing he would attack would be the bogey wheels. They used to immobilize German armour and then it was vulnerable.

OK Baden Guy, I could turn the question around and ask how all you Blue Jobs defend against AA missiles that can differentiate between the IR signature of an aircraft and its countermeasures, but it is a fair question......sort of.  First off, anyone aiming for bogey wheels is crossing his fingers and praying for a lot luck.  All soldiers are taught to aim for the center of mass, not head shots.  The same goes for antitank gunners.

These are age old arguments.  Imagine back in the days of the longbow, what they were saying when the crossbow was introduced, and then even later when gunpowder was introduced, and still later when rifling was introduced, and on and on.  Mankind will always develop a weapon system to defeat some defence, and at the same time be developing a defence for said weapon, and vis versa.  Life goes on.  

 

[Jammer]

Good Lord!
Give me a frickin' break. NO ONE who is here posting has even been in Afghanistan since the tanks have been deployed. Yeah you can all figure out all kinds of mystical ways to blow a tank to Mars...woopee!
Now here it from me. The tanks have been I dare say the most effective weapon I have seen in theatre, I wish to god we had them when we crossed the Arghandab river last September, perhaps there would not have been the loss of life there was. Since they were deployed, and after a month of dicking around with then so the Sqn could get their shit together before they went out the door in Nov they have been used extensively with relatively minmal down time, in fact they have NEVER been unable to accomplish any mission given to them. Yeah there are places they can't get to, but hell anything with an internal combustion engine can't get everywhere. Shit, show me a vehicle that can and we should get it!
Like having a big dog, it doesn't have to bite to be intimidating.
So forget about crossbows, and all the different ways to open up a panzer with a P-38 can opener, and think about how the hell we're gonna kill more Taliban!!!!!!

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

Leopard Tanks and the Deadly Dilemmas of the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan
By Michael Wallace

The Vulnerability of the Leopard Tank It is a truism that even the most modern armoured vehicles, including main battle tanks (MBTs), are
almost totally helpless when deployed alone against advanced anti-tank missile systems, and even rocketpropelled grenades (RPGs).

Our tanks are not deployed alone, which is my point regarding the combat team.

 

[Flip]

They are distorting facts to fit their agenda.  Unfortunately, other than people on this site, who is to disprove them?  Steven Staples even frequents this site, as I am sure, do many of the others we have commented on, just to test the waters and get more facts to bend.  Their lies to the Canadian public are a slap in the face to "Responsible Journalism".

Thus - this is our obligation. To set the public record straight and confront their nonsense.
A civvy like me may not have the knowledge that you guys do but I know crap when I hear it.

Sometimes all we have to do is let "them" know we're not buyin it, or we can see we're being mislead. Given the chance the media will attack anything they think will make them more popular.
If it's clear that their position is making them unpopular - they will be inclined to adjust their position

Been awhile since we've heard from Taliban Jack hasn't it?
Maybe we should drop him a note  ;D

 

[Brad Sallows]

Tanks are vulnerable.  So is everything else, usually to a greater degree than tanks.  What unmitigated idiots.

 

[Infanteer]

Took me a while to recognize that this author was one of my professors in university.  To give you an idea of the breadth of his military knowledge, I remember him lecturing our class about America's global strike force in Ft Lewis, the 10th Mountain Division.... :

 

[Edward Campbell]

The Ruxted Group debunked Prof. Wallace more than a month ago.

 

[observor 69]

The Ruxted Group debunked Prof. Wallace more than a month ago.

Now if you could only get Prof. Wallace to read the Ruxted article !

Then again you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

 

[geo]

Took me a while to recognize that this author was one of my professors in university.  To give you an idea of the breadth of his military knowledge, I remember him lecturing our class about America's global strike force in Ft Lewis, the 10th Mountain Division.... :

I thought the 10th was based out of Ft Drum?

 

[George Wallace]

It is.  That is why Infanteer put  : at the end of his post.

 

[geo]

Ahhh....

Subtlety..... make him an officer and
make me an NCO 

 

[3rd Herd]

Interesting that you have brought this up.

Would you also be so kind as to post the solutions that they came up with to counter this initial 'mistake'?

For one the use of artillery in the direct fire role here quoting the mentioned article " Self-propelled howitzers accompanied the attack and provided direct fire on resisting enemy strong points. Multiple rocket launchers were even used in direct fire against a particularly stubborn enemy." Next as mentioned  in this thread was the development of a combined arms teams (a lesson forgotten from the Second world war, in which Canadians did quite well at). The Soviets had problems with the redevelopment of this concept( here again the "tank riders" of the march to Berlin have been left to the historians). Again refering to the article at hand the Soviets as with the Isrealis recognized a gap in urban armoured use. As mentioned in this thread the Isrealis developed the Merkava while the Russians brought forth the "BMPT or Beovaya mashina podderzhki tankov". Martin in his article gives a very good look at the example is used in the demise of the 131st “Maikop” Brigade and carries his evalutions into 1995 with "By early January 1995, the Maykop Brigade had suffered extraordinary casualties of 800 dead and wounded. The brigade had also lost twenty out of twenty-six tanks, 102 out of 120 BMP infantry fighting vehicles and all six of their ZSU-23 self-propelled antitank guns."( Here Martin is quoting another one of Grau's excellent works).

In the infantry portion as mentioned in several of Grau's works came the reorganization of the basic Russian rifle section to a "troika fire teams comprising a sniper, a machine-gunner and a soldier equipped with a grenade launcher.Two other soldiers, acting as ammunition carriers or assistant gunners, supplemented these teams. The use of Russian fire teams forced Chechen fie teams to abandon fixed positions on upper floors of buildings, on balconies and in attics. The clearing and screening action of Russian all-arms teams led to greater protection for the armoured forces. Using manoeuvre by fire against buildings, apartment blocks and strong points, Russian troops were able to counter the supremacy of Chechen urban tactics." As I mentioned in other posts it is nice to have a closed conflict in which I mean the conflict itself is not featured on the evening news. That allowed the Russians certain extremes without censure in the world media public opinion polls. After all the Americans invented the terminolgy "we had to destroy it to save it". Martin ends his article with "Russia’s recent experience of urban combat remains relevant to future military operations and is worthy of close study Russia’s recent experience of urban combat remains relevant to future military operations and is worthy of close study." But to your average military member both NCM and Comissioned is the reaction of 'Why should we study them they lost".


Source:
Andrew,Martin.  Flight Sergeant, RAAF. "The Russian Experience of Urban Combat Some Lessons from Central Asia"
http://www.defence.gov.au/army/lwsc/AbstractsOnline/AAJournal/2004_S/AAJ_Dec_03_Insights_Andrews.pdf

Edit to add:

"The difficulty is determining how the guerrillas conducted their urban combat operations - - their literal techniques and methods. Few guerrillas conduct written after action reports. Consequently, although we often know from history what they did, it is more difficult to determine how they did it.(Marques, Patrick D. MAJ "GUERRILLA WARFARE TACTICS IN URBAN ENVIRONMENTS" Fort Leavenworth, Kansas 2003. http://www.fas.org/man/eprint/marques.pdf

2nd Edit:


"As the Russians regrouped, they brought in more infantry and began a systematic advance through the city, house by house and block by block. Russian armored vehicle losses dropped off with their change in tactics. Russian infantry moved in front with armored combat vehicles in support or in reserve. Some Russian vehicles were outfitted with a cage of wire mesh mounted some 25-30 centimeters away from the hull armor to defeat the shaped charges of an antitank grenade launcher as well as to protect the vehicle from a Molotov cocktail or bundle of explosives. The Russians began establishing ambushes on approach routes into a selected area and then running vehicles into the area as bait to destroy Chechen hunter-killer teams." Lastly based on loses the Russian General staff "convinced the Russian Minister of Defense to stop procuring tanks with gas-turbine engines" Grau, Lester W. “Russian-Manufactured Armored Vehicle Vulnerability in Urban Combat: The Chechnya Experience”. Foreign Military Studies Office, Fort Leavenworth, KS. http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/rusav.htm

For the Isreali Issues and experiences:

Urban Lessons Learned: Operation Peace for Galilee http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/740602/posts

(No source information but it has several good points)

Lesson 34: Tanks are central to Israeli urban warfare doctrine. The centrality of the tank in Israeli tactical doctrine led the IDF to examine how tanks could best be employed in cities while at the same time guarding against their recognized vulnerabilities. IDF doctrine also emphasized that the shock value of tanks in cities could sometimes compensate for a lack of dismounted infantry support. Despite this predisposition for using unsupported tanks in cities, the IDF moved to using combined arms tactics during the siege of Beirut where the tank was judged the single most valuable weapons for suppressing enemy fire. It should also be noted that the Israelis lost few tanks in urban fighting. It is unclear whether this modest loss rate was due to extensive use of infantry support to suppress anti-tank fire, superior design characteristics, or poor PLO anti-tank tactics

Lesson 46: Armored bulldozers are critical assets in urban combat. IDF combat engineers used armored bulldozers to clear barricades (some of which were mined) as well as other obstructions which slowed IDF operational tempo. Bulldozers were also used to smother bunkers, establish firing positions, widen and grade roads, and to create alternative avenues of advance to by-pass the urban infrastructure

Lesson 49: Dissatisfaction with the survivability of combat infantry vehicles led to significant technological improvements after the war. One of the outcomes of the war in Lebanon was the IDF decision in the early 1990s to build a heavy armored infantry vehicle, the Achzerit, based on surplus T-55 tank hulls. About 250 Achzerits were build as a supplement to the M113 armored personnel carrier, especially in urban combat situations. The Achzarit weights 43 tons and carries a crew of two plus 10 infantrymen. It is armed with a Rafael OWS remote control machine-gun station plus two 7.62mm manually-operated FN machine-guns. Additionally, the Achzarit carries an internally-mounted 60mm mortar for use against man-portable anti-tank weapons. The M113 also underwent a series of upgrades to improve its survivability to RPGs and to make it more suitable for urban terrain. With about 4,000 M113s in service, the IDF had no choice but to improve the M113 rather than replace the fleet with a more suitable urban assault vehicle. After the war the IDF developed an improved add-on spaced armor based on Rafael’s TOGA applique armor. This was a carbon-steel, lighter-weight, perforated applique mounted to the sides of the M113’s hull and front. Not completely, satisfied with the TOGA’s performance against RPGs, the Israelis developed two more passive armor packages. Finally, in 1996, the IDF fitted their M113s with a reactive armor package.

 

[3rd Herd]

For those looking for more information on the value of tanks in this type of conflict, suggest either some of the plethora of open sources about Iraq or Israel.  For Afghanistan in the Soviet era, two of the most reputable authors are Lester Grau and Michael Gress.  Their "The Soviet-Afghan War - How a superpower fought and lost" offers some good insight.  Publisher information and page reference are in my signature line or here:http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/grasov.html.

Echoing Command-Sense-Act 105 see:

USMC Small War Center of Excellence http://www.smallwars.quantico.usmc.mil/search/journals.asp as there are by rough count 22 articles by Grau on the reading list.

 

[Babbling Brooks]

Story here: http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/04/speaking-of-scoops-welcome-new-leos.html

Basic details:

• 20 Leopard 2A6M's borrowed, not leased, from the Germans, for deployment to Kandahar as quickly as possible.
• A total of 100 used Leos from the Netherlands, for delivery sometime this fall. These tanks have apparently been properly stored and maintained to keep them in top shape. Of those 100 tanks, 40 will be 2A4's for two training squadrons in Canada (one in Gagetown, one in Wainwright), 40 will be two squadrons of 2A6's that after some Canadianization and upgrades (especially to the armour) will be deployable anywhere we need them, and 20 will be specialist tanks (bridge-layers, ARV's, dozers, etc).
• The money to pay for this purchase (including an initial purchase of spare parts) comes from the cancellation of the MGS project - $650 million bucks already allocated.
• I've heard speculation we'll be keeping our current Leopard 1 C2's around as training aids until they break down for good. Waste not, want not.

 

[Cardstonkid]

Great news.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

OH MY GOD<! I NEVER THOUGHT I WOULD LIVE TO SEE THIS DAY!!!!!!!!

100 Leo's2A6's from Holland

Not only are we getting new tanks, but we are actaully getting more working equipment than currently used, a trend I hope contiues!!!


Cdn. troops to get new tanks in Afghanistan
Updated Thu. Apr. 12 2007 4:08 PM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

In an effort to bolster resistance against Taliban forces in southern Afghanistan, Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor announced a two-part plan that will provide soldiers with new tanks by this summer.


O'Connor announced the Canadian government will purchase 100 Leopard A6M tanks from the Netherlands, which will replace the 17 aging Leopard C2s currently being used in the country.


"Our Leopard One fleet is almost 30 years old and we are one of the last two countries in the world to use them," O'Connor said on Thursday during a press conference in Quebec City.


The tanks are slated to arrive in Canada by the fall of 2007.


The defence minister also announced a new deal with Germany to lease 20 Leopard A6M tanks which will arrive in Afghanistan as early as summer 2007 to help strengthen efforts against an expected Taliban spring resurgence.


The new tanks will offer soldiers stronger firing capabilities, faster land speeds and more armour to protect against roadside bombs.


"These tanks are truly effective," O'Connor said.


The manufacturer has planned to stop making replacement parts for the current Leopard C2s tanks being used by the Canadian military by 2012.


The 100 tanks purchased from the Netherlands are expected to arrive in Canada by late August or early September.


"They have been well maintained because the Netherlands planned to sell them. They are in very good condition," O'Connor said.


The tanks will be refurbished -- the work will be contracted out to a Canadian company -- and 20 of the upgraded tanks will be sent immediately to Afghanistan to replace the leased German Leopard A6M's.


CTV's Paul Workman has reported on the incredible heat endured by personnel inside the aging Leopard tanks, which are not equipped with air conditioning.


O'Connor confirmed today that both the leased German tanks and the 100 tanks purchased from the Netherlands will be equipped with air cooling systems.


Eight NATO leaders met in Quebec City on Thursday to discuss how to better coordinate their efforts in Afghanistan.


O'Connor said NATO leaders will not increase the amount of troops in the country.


However, the U.S. has extended its presence in Afghanistan at least until the end of the summer, while Poland and Australia have committed more troops to southern areas of the country, which is believed to be enough to carry NATO forces through the hazardous summer months.


Spring offensive


NATO is in the midst of Operation Achilles, a spring offensive meant to pre-empt an expected Taliban campaign. Insurgent attacks are typically stepped up after winter snows melt and mountain passes reopen, allowing militants to travel more freely.


Six Canadians were killed and a seventh was seriously wounded on Sunday when a roadside bomb was detonated. Two more were killed on Wednesday by another roadside bomb.


For months, the U.S. and NATO have called on other member nations to make a greater contribution to the campaign. O'Connor has also joined in, urging countries to remove caveats on their soldiers so they can participate in the heavy fighting in the south.


The U.S., U.K. and Canada have handled most of the actual combat operations against the Taliban.


With files from The Associated Press

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070412/gates_oconnor_070412/20070412?hub=TopStories (linky added  8) )

 

[LordOsborne]

I'm very happy to hear the news. I might just have to rebadge now  :warstory: