CAF Security Forces [Split from RCN Anti Drone Weapon]

[Humphrey Bogart]

Nope. In this case, the CAF can't half ass and lie to itself. External review and audit will force compliance.

When has this ever stopped them before?

 

[dimsum]

When has this ever stopped them before?

When the external person is the US?

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

When the external person is the US?

The Canadian History is doing as little as possible in spite of Uncle Sam's protestations. Colour me shocked if that's not what happens in this case.

We will reconvene on this thread in a decade to see where we are at with things

 

[dimsum]

The Canadian History is doing as little as possible in spite of Uncle Sam's protestations. Colour me shocked if that's not what happens in this case.

We will reconvene on this thread in a decade to see where we are at with things

Sure. What I’m saying is that normally, the US didn’t have such rules in place for any nation operating its stuff - short of nukes.

So we either get the infrastructure and folks ready, or the US doesn’t ship the things to us. There’s no other option - and while I can’t speak for the RCN, publicly the RCAF knows this.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Sure. What I’m saying is that normally, the US didn’t have such rules in place for any nation operating its stuff - short of nukes.

So we either get the infrastructure and folks ready, or the US doesn’t ship the things to us. There’s no other option - and publicly, the RCAF knows this.

Time will tell. As they say, past performance is not indicative of future results.

The real question is how does the GoC plan to fund all these initiatives?

 

[Kirkhill]

https://www.cfc.forces.gc.ca/259/290/293/286/thobocarlsen.pdf

Both the RAF and the RAAF make use of Auxilliary and Reserve personnel.

Both the RAF and the RAAF organize themselves around a reinforced company, essentially a light company combat team with heavy weapons augmentation.

And a supplemented CQ with kitchen.

 

[GR66]

I don’t think the ARes is remotely close to being able to reliably sustain something like this. If you have a full time established need, you need a full time establishment.

Agreed. Is there any reason Reg Force MP units couldn't be beefed up to take on this role? Isn't it something they would already be expected to do in wartime anyway?

That being said, we already have BASF (Base Auxiliary Security Force or whatever the current acronym is) taskings to augment our base security in times of increased threat, but these are personnel that are drawn from their regular trades to augment the existing security forces when required. Wouldn't it make sense to have nearby Reserve units tasked for similar augmentation when required as well? The bonus is that this would be their primary task and they could train for this specifically, unlike the BASF so they could fulfill some of the more specialized tasks that the BASF doesn't have time to train for (C-UAS, DF Support, Mortars, etc.)

That’s not a class B job, it’s a Class C realistically, which mean it is a Reg Force task.

Frankly it should not be that hard to do, as for the simplest (but not best) method you could plus up the Inf BN’s and make it an ERE position, or just recreate D Coy’s and then post them out to the various areas.

But it’s not a real Infantry line serial, it’s a blend of Infantry, Security Guard, and Police person. So it should be a new trade, or at least will require a lot of supplemental training for folks coming from Cbt Arms and/Or MP positions (and the MP’s would want to keep spec pay).

Why a new trade? Are not MP's (in their historic role) "a blend of Infantry, Security Guard, and Police person"? As has been suggested elsewhere the MP's could/should focus on their wartime roles and leave the civilian policing role to the RCMP or local police forces.

A base security role would actually be a very good use of Class B employment for Reservists. Give them experience to bring back to their Reserve units so that when they are called upon to augment the Reg Force units in times of increased threat then they are better prepared.

 

[Remius]

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https://www.cfc.forces.gc.ca/259/290/293/286/thobocarlsen.pdf

Both the RAF and the RAAF make use of Auxilliary and Reserve personnel.

Both the RAF and the RAAF organize themselves around a reinforced company, essentially a light company combat team with heavy weapons augmentation.

And a supplemented CQ with kitchen.

The UK also has the advantage of geography for its reserve catchment. We don’t.

 

[Kirkhill]

How difficult would it be to find people willing to handle security duties locally?

In Ontario

This graph shows the total number of security guard, private investigator and dual licencees on a yearly basis from 2017 to 2021.

• In 2017, there were 71,880 licensed security guards, 2,204 licensed private investigators and 2,179 licensed dual.
• In 2018, there were 77,662 licensed security guards, 2,211 licensed private investigators and 2,150 licensed dual.
• In 2019, there were 86,192 licensed security guards, 2,283 licensed private investigators and 2,187 licensed dual.
• In 2020, there were 95,451 licensed security guards, 2,369 licensed private investigators and 2,190 licensed dual.
• In 2021, there were 107,589 licensed security guards, 2,463 licensed private investigators and 2,281 licensed dual.

Private Security and Investigative Services Branch Annual Report 2021

Read the report and learn about milestones and accomplishments during 2021.

www.ontario.ca

The security industry in Canada stands as one of the most advanced and well-developed sectors in the nation’s economy. With millions of employees working in private security companies, these firms play an integral role in safeguarding the public and private interests.

The security industry in Canada is a thriving and well-regulated sector that plays a vital role in safeguarding both public and private interests. With stringent licensing and hiring processes, Canadian security firms ensure that their personnel are highly qualified and capable of handling diverse security challenges. The industry offers a wide range of services, from personal protection to loss prevention and investigations, catering to the unique security needs of clients across the nation.

The Thriving Security Industry in Canada: A Closer Look

Dive into the heart of Canada's thriving security industry with our comprehensive blog, exploring its advanced regulatory framework, diverse services, and significant economic contribution. Learn how meticulous licensing and vetting processes ensure highly qualified personnel safeguard public...

trainingcentrecanada.ca

The private security industry in Canada has been growing at an impressive rate in recent years. According to a report by Statistics Canada, the private security services industry has seen a 5.6% annual growth rate between 2014 and 2019, with a market size of $8.6 billion in 2019. In the province of Alberta, the number of security guard companies increased by 8% from 2019 to 2023 and the number of security guards increased by 19% over the same time period, according to Alberta Justice who licenses the companies and guards. This growth is driven by several factors, including rising crime rates, increased demand for protective services, and budget cuts in the public safety sector.

https://www.tipofspearsecuritytraining.ca/post/the-growing-demand-for-private-security-in-canada

There appears to be a whole commercial industry based on local people taking on mundane security jobs.

We can't divert some of that flow through a Total Force / Reserve construct? Base Security and GBAD/C-UAS?

 

[Remius]

A

How difficult would it be to find people willing to handle security duties locally?

In Ontario

Private Security and Investigative Services Branch Annual Report 2021

Read the report and learn about milestones and accomplishments during 2021.

www.ontario.ca

The Thriving Security Industry in Canada: A Closer Look

Dive into the heart of Canada's thriving security industry with our comprehensive blog, exploring its advanced regulatory framework, diverse services, and significant economic contribution. Learn how meticulous licensing and vetting processes ensure highly qualified personnel safeguard public...

trainingcentrecanada.ca

https://www.tipofspearsecuritytraining.ca/post/the-growing-demand-for-private-security-in-canada

There appears to be a whole commercial industry based on local people taking on mundane security jobs.

We can't divert some of that flow through a Total Force / Reserve construct? Base Security and GBAD/C-UAS?

and a lot of those people are unsuitable or unwilling for CAF service. I’m not sure I want someone happy to be a mall cop to be watching F35s.

 

[Kirkhill]

The UK also has the advantage of geography for its reserve catchment. We don’t.

We may not have all the bases covered but we have a lot of our bases close to Militia units. Beyond the FOLs and Cold Lake are there any bases that don't have armouries within 20 miles or so?

And as for Cold Lake - They may be due for an armoury somewhere in the St Paul - Bonnyville - Lac La Biche area - with Cold Lake itself there is a catchment area of 30 to 50,000 or so within an hour's drive.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

and a lot of those people are unsuitable or unwilling for CAF service. I’m not sure I want someone happy to be a mall cop to be watching F35s.

Not even Paul Blart?

 

[Kirkhill]

A

and a lot of those people are unsuitable or unwilling for CAF service. I’m not sure I want someone happy to be a mall cop to be watching F35s.

And thus we have 70,000 applicants and 66,000 rejects....

 

[CBH99]

The Regs will engage if the alternative is “none of those assets are allowed in Canada”.

That myth has to end. It wasn’t “CAF saving $30M” - it was TB saying “do it or we take away all PLD, CFHD, everything”.

Oh I know.

i know it wasn't the CAF taking it away to save $30M.

I know it was TB saying that.


Regardless of whether the CAF decided it was a good idea, or Treasury Board decided to mandate it because of direction from senior politicians...CAF members now take home substantially less money than they did before that decision was made, at a time when the cost of living has never been higher & retention is at a near all time low. Let's not lose the forest through the trees)

...

But back on topic...potentially exciting times for both RCN & RCAF folks who might want some cool training opportunities doing something new.

This tasking screams 'Military Police' to my mind

 

[Remius]

We may not have all the bases covered but we have a lot of our bases close to Militia units. Beyond the FOLs and Cold Lake are there any bases that don't have armouries within 20 miles or so?

Which ones? Take Trenton. You have a part of a reserve unit nearby. They can’t generate 120 people for that task.

Cold lake? You’ll basically be creating the Brockville Rifles nearby and maybe get a section’s worth.

And as for Cold Lake - They may be due for an armoury somewhere in the St Paul - Bonnyville - Lac La Biche area - with Cold Lake itself there is a catchment area of 30 to 50,000 or so within an hour's drive.

30 to 50k will barely get you a full rifle company if you are lucky.

It isn’t sustainable by any reserve unit.

 

[Kirkhill]

Which ones? Take Trenton. You have a part of a reserve unit nearby. They can’t generate 120 people for that task.

Cold lake? You’ll basically be creating the Brockville Rifles nearby and maybe get a section’s worth.

30 to 50k will barely get you a full rifle company if you are lucky.

It isn’t sustainable by any reserve unit.

Pay them like security guards and tell me that again.

....

As to the quality of the candidates - I was just contemplating googling the number of PhDs in the Rock Apes. Or the MOD Police for that matter.

 

[Kilted]

How difficult would it be to find people willing to handle security duties locally?

In Ontario

Private Security and Investigative Services Branch Annual Report 2021

Read the report and learn about milestones and accomplishments during 2021.

www.ontario.ca

The Thriving Security Industry in Canada: A Closer Look

Dive into the heart of Canada's thriving security industry with our comprehensive blog, exploring its advanced regulatory framework, diverse services, and significant economic contribution. Learn how meticulous licensing and vetting processes ensure highly qualified personnel safeguard public...

trainingcentrecanada.ca

https://www.tipofspearsecuritytraining.ca/post/the-growing-demand-for-private-security-in-canada

There appears to be a whole commercial industry based on local people taking on mundane security jobs.

We can't divert some of that flow through a Total Force / Reserve construct? Base Security and GBAD/C-UAS?

A large number of those licenced to be security in Ontario probably shouldn't be. Its an industry where you can get some really amazing people, and some really horrible people that are only kept around because there is a manpower shortage.

 

[Underway]

So I got curious and just did a dive into the Nuclear Safety and Control Act, and the Nuclear Security Regulations. Nuclear Security Officers are a statutorily prescribed entity who have limited peace officer status at their designated sites. This puts them under the conventional Criminal Code provisions for use of force.

The NDA could be amended to create a similar Security Forces Officer who is granted peace officer status, with regulations as necessary to flesh out a lot of the specifics. Some of the latter could probably just be amendments to the Defence Controlled Access Area regulations.

We have MPs for that. Basically you would have MPs do the arresting part. Place them attached to the QRF or some such.

Agreed. Is there any reason Reg Force MP units couldn't be beefed up to take on this role? Isn't it something they would already be expected to do in wartime anyway?

Why a new trade? Are not MP's (in their historic role) "a blend of Infantry, Security Guard, and Police person"? As has been suggested elsewhere the MP's could/should focus on their wartime roles and leave the civilian policing role to the RCMP or local police forces.

Yes. Counter UAV, mortars, Heavy machine guns and snipers. There is your reason MPs cant and won't do the job. They are not a defence and Security force anymore. That expertise is only kept on the Pres MPs now.

I think the RCAF will only get what they really want if they build it themselves.

A base security role would actually be a very good use of Class B employment for Reservists. Give them experience to bring back to their Reserve units so that when they are called upon to augment the Reg Force units in times of increased threat then they are better prepared.

Class B should not be relied upon for this. This has to be integral to the Reg F. Also these would have to be Class C contracts.

 

[quadrapiper]

A large number of those licenced to be security in Ontario probably shouldn't be. Its an industry where you can get some really amazing people, and some really horrible people that are only kept around because there is a manpower shortage.

Chatting with security at gigs, I can second the numbers issues, especially for anything more involved or demanding than "check for show pass in a warm indoor space." There's also a fair chunk of people working in that area (no idea how many) specifically for the moonlighting/gig aspect: would see the occasional sailor out of Esquimalt working at arena shows.

So... you need thinking people, who can (be trained to) drive the King's vehicles without undue incident, keep vaguely alert at 0300 on a dirty night, interact with all the thousand possible authorized and unauthorized people around a base without causing/allowing havoc/lawsuits/international incidents/breaches, probably be armed, carry out their duties in weird/hazardous/complex areas (dockyards, airfields), and do all of this in locations that are either The Sticks or wallet-meltingly expensive. 24/7.

They may also need to cut about in boats, armoured vehicles, ATVs, or tracked things in the snow.

Expect filling these needs with CAF members is the cheapest possible option by far.

 

[Underway]

Chatting with security at gigs, I can second the numbers issues, especially for anything more involved or demanding than "check for show pass in a warm indoor space." There's also a fair chunk of people working in that area (no idea how many) specifically for the moonlighting/gig aspect: would see the occasional sailor out of Esquimalt working at arena shows.

So... you need thinking people, who can (be trained to) drive the King's vehicles without undue incident, keep vaguely alert at 0300 on a dirty night, interact with all the thousand possible authorized and unauthorized people around a base without causing/allowing havoc/lawsuits/international incidents/breaches, probably be armed, carry out their duties in weird/hazardous/complex areas (dockyards, airfields), and do all of this in locations that are either The Sticks or wallet-meltingly expensive. 24/7.

They may also need to cut about in boats, armoured vehicles, ATVs, or tracked things in the snow.

Expect filling these needs with CAF members is the cheapest possible option by far.

And we know where to recruit them from. All those security people in the private sector. Can't beat our pay and benifits.