CadetPat field uniform

[PJOsborne]

http://www.cadets.ca/_docs/cato-oaic/5504_b.pdf

That's a link to the Air Cadet CATO on uniforms, from the Cadet website. on page 8, section 18 (at the top of the page) it states:

18. Air Cadets shall not wear the following
uniforms/badges:
a. any form of CF uniform or cadet
uniform, past or present, not described
in this CATO;
b. any form of CF mess dress, past or
present; and
c. rank or qualification badges of the CF
or any other badges not described in
this CATO.

I looked through the rest of the CATO, and I did not see the combat canadian flag mentioned anywhere, therefore we can assume that it is not allowed. That's just my take on the CATO... it's what I was told when i was in cadets, and it's what i did.

 

[ouyin2000]

Everyone likes to stick to the "If it's not in the CATOs it doesn't happen" principle.

The CATOs don't specify that any cadet needs to brush their teeth or change their underwear (it does however specify that cadets shall wear undergarments of some type). So are we to assume that in order to be a cadet, one must not bathe or clean themselves?

I know, I know, and extreme example, but it does get my point across.

 

[PJOsborne]

Oh, i agree with you there, Ouyin. The CATOs are interpretable to a wide degree, and that's the way it's always been and is probably always going to be.    There were some cadets that couldn't be convinced to take off their flags, and c'est la vie.

 

[yoman]

Oh, i agree with you there, Ouyin. The CATOs are interpretable to a wide degree, and that's the way it's always been and is probably always going to be.    There were some cadets that couldn't be convinced to take off their flags, and c'est la vie.

I would be one of those cadets that couldn't be convinced to remove it.

 

[Scott]

How about ordered? Are CATO's not orders?

 

[Scott]

It's easy to ignore orders when your not under any obligation to do so.

Good point. But look at it from a Cadet's perspective, they are always wanting us to take them seriously. So, wether I was obligated or not I would do what I was told.

 

[Burrows]

If you can find anywhere in the CF Dress Regs, not the cadet ones where it mentions a flag, that would be good.  Otherwise I'm sure it could be considered part of the uniform.

 

[condor888000]

Good god I hate this argument. And yet I post everytime I see it.

Anyway, as was mentioned, the CATO's make no specific mention of it, and as they are exclusive, then it would seem that it is not permitted to be worn.

Now, as Burrows pointed out, it could be interpreted that if the CF regs make specific mention of the flag, then it is not authorized for cadets to wear. If they don't, as we know that the CF is permitted to wear the flag, it could be assumed that cadets may do the same.

All that is one possibility. The other, which strikes me as FAR more likely, is simply that D-Cadets did not think that this flag issue would come up when the CATO's were written. Because of such, unless you get something straight from D-Cadets telling you to wear them or not to, I'd go with that age old wonder, CO's discretion.

Yes, I know that the CATO's are orders, however, as they do not SPECIFICALLY state in clear language that it is not permitted, and the fact that I've been issued combats with flags on them as well as several flight suits with the flags, leads me to believe that in this case, leave it up to the CO UNLESS D-Cadets sends an amendment stating otherwise or the new CATO's come out.

And now I wait to see how many people decide to tear me apart because I suggested that the CATO's may not be all knowing..... 8)

 

[yoman]

unless you get something straight from D-Cadets telling you to wear them or not to, I'd go with that age old wonder, CO's discretion.

Yes, I know that the CATO's are orders, however, as they do not SPECIFICALLY state in clear language that it is not permitted

And now I wait to see how many people decide to tear me apart because I suggested that the CATO's may not be all knowing..... 8)

CO's discretion is the way to go. Since my CO doesn't mind us wearing it, I'm good to go. Next time I get the chance I will ask my insightfull NDHQ insider...

Good point. But look at it from a Cadet's perspective, they are always wanting us to take them seriously. So, wether I was obligated or not I would do what I was told.

I would do what I was told if it wasn't for the fact I bought it with my own money.

 

[PJOsborne]

Good point on that last one, Yoman. Those cadets that didn't remove the flag at the request of officers / NCOs wondered why they should if they bought it with their own money. I also agree that COs discretion is the way to go.

However, i think we've digressed a bit (my own fault, i admit) from my original point, which was that making CADETPAT uniforms easily distinguishable as "cadets" is easy as using only uniform slipons, and potentially the parka roundel..

 

[Scott]

I would do what I was told if it wasn't for the fact I bought it with my own money.

Full stop. I had a set of non-issue gloves that I wore to the range once. I was promptly told, not too nicely, by one of the range staff to make the gloves disappear. Wether he was right or wrong I did it, no questions asked.

If your CO tells you to wear it then I guess you can do so until you find out otherwise. However, I must caution that your CO may be setting himself up for a jacking. Also, if you know that what your CO is using as "his discretion" goes against orders then you are supposed to inform him of such or you are neglecting your duties. That's how she works.

 

[yoman]

Wrong!

If you want cadets to be 'more military' and taken more seriously, then start acting like it. Which means, do as you are told. If you are told to remove your flag, whether or not you bought it is irrelevant...it was an order to be followed.

But then again, when it's just fun and games I guess the regs and rules set for cadets don't matter that much anyways. Policy is, no CF insignia on a cadet's combats that may confuse them with serving members, to some that means the flag. Personally, I don't care. In fact, they should wear it, being Canadian and all.

However, rules are rules. When I was in cadets, I was told to remove the flags from my combats (which I bought with my own money). I did so, since it was an order. If someone can't figure out that in the military (or a suedo-military group like cadets) orders are to be followed, then they should stay away (at least away from the real thing).

My question is how can a Canadian flag be a CF insignia? My unit allows cadets to wear the fake CADPAT witch I do not agree with. That to me is more of a CF symbol (and all this is done at Connaught Range).

Full stop. I had a set of non-issue gloves that I wore to the range once. I was promptly told, not too nicely, by one of the range staff to make the gloves disappear. Wether he was right or wrong I did it, no questions asked.

If your CO tells you to wear it then I guess you can do so until you find out otherwise. However, I must caution that your CO may be setting himself up for a jacking. Also, if you know that what your CO is using as "his discretion" goes against orders then you are supposed to inform him of such or you are neglecting your duties. That's how she works.

I will tell you right now my CO is breaking some rules. And she does know she is. And I was not saying my CO goes by her own discretion type thing, just that if the rules aren't clear then you should do what the CO says to do. Also, this is not a thread about cadets obeying orders or not.

Good point on that last one, Yoman. Those cadets that didn't remove the flag at the request of officers / NCOs wondered why they should if they bought it with their own money. I also agree that COs discretion is the way to go.

However, i think we've digressed a bit (my own fault, i admit) from my original point, which was that making CADETPAT uniforms easily distinguishable as "cadets" is easy as using only uniform slipons, and potentially the parka roundel..

Imagine, all these problems can be resolved with a what you are suggesting (plus making it more accessable).

 

[ouyin2000]

...whether or not you bought it is irrelevant...it was an order to be followed...

Absolutely correct.

I have never had a CO order me to remove the canadian flag from my OD combats that I bought, so I left it on. Had I received that order, I would have followed it immediately. (which is something that is missing from today's army cadets)

 

[ryanmann356]

I have never seen anyone get ordered to remove the canadian flag from the OD uniform anywhere.  Actually, the new cadetpat has a full colored candian flag sewn on, they got rid of the velcro.  I have seen pictures of canadian soldiers during UN missions overseas wearing the full colored canadian flag on their ODs.  I cant imagine cadets getting ordered to remove the flag, i mean its a source of pride. 

 

[Scott]

My question is how can a Canadian flag be a CF insignia? My unit allows cadets to wear the fake CADPAT witch I do not agree with. That to me is more of a CF symbol (and all this is done at Connaught Range).

I will tell you right now my CO is breaking some rules. And she does know she is. And I was not saying my CO goes by her own discretion type thing, just that if the rules aren't clear then you should do what the CO says to do. Also, this is not a thread about cadets obeying orders or not.

I believe it's the colour scheme, the combat green that would make this particular flag a CF symbol.

If you think that just because someone else ignores the rules that you can as well then you will not make it very far in this world. Ignorance is not a defence and people won't trust you as innocent and knowing nothing - you ARE responsible, act like it.

And thanks for the reminder of what the thread was about, can you help me walk and chew gum too?

 

[lawandorder]

Cadet Uniforms should be completely different and distinct from Reserve and Regular Force members. 
That means it should something different then the OD and CADPAT.  A lot of active members still have all the OD outerwear gear.

I have worked with Cadets before and didn't like the fact that some were wearing CADPAT.  They didn't have the same level of professionalism.  They were goofing around and the such.  Obviously thats not the case for ALL Cadets.

They should not be allowed to wear CADPAT, the OD will be allright once the entire CF is finished being blanketed with CADPAT.

As for the Flag, sure let them wear the flag.  They're Canadian.  I think there just needs to be something more that distinguishes them as Cadets.

 

[c.jacob]

I have never seen anyone get ordered to remove the canadian flag from the OD uniform anywhere.  Actually, the new cadetpat has a full colored candian flag sewn on, they got rid of the velcro.  I have seen pictures of canadian soldiers during UN missions overseas wearing the full colored canadian flag on their ODs.  I cant imagine cadets getting ordered to remove the flag, i mean its a source of pride.   

I was told to take it off when I was a cadet and just got new combats.  I liked the flag and didn't really want to take it off.  But orders are orders and being the RSM, I had to set the example so i did as I was told without a fuss.

 

[cadettrooper]

I think these kind of threads should be forever banned from this site.

Always we will have cadets trying to look as 'military' as possible, those who don't care and those who know the rules. And we will always have military types saying that cadets should have distinct uniforms to separate them from us. ........

.......But others have different opinions, and the status quo is somewhere in between since Cadets Canada can't seem to make a definitive policy regarding a cadet wide field uniform standard for all cadets; air, land and sea.

You make a very good point Piper, I'm stating to get sick of these meaningless arguments going on. lets see if we can get back to the original topic OK?

                                      "can't we all just be friends" ;D :warstory:                             

 

[yoman]

I believe it's the colour scheme, the combat green that would make this particular flag a CF symbol.

If you think that just because someone else ignores the rules that you can as well then you will not make it very far in this world. Ignorance is not a defence and people won't trust you as innocent and knowing nothing - you ARE responsible, act like it.

And thanks for the reminder of what the thread was about, can you help me walk and chew gum too?

If the flag was the standart red and white would it still be a CF symbol or something that says that you are Canadian? What difference does it make that the flag is green, purple, pink or green?

Ok, this is getting to far. I am responsible for my actions.

This discussion seemed to have derailed so I suggested we go back on track. Do you have a problem with that sir? If you do please feel free to contact me via pm so we can discuss this further.

 

[Scott]

Oh man....I made my point. I can see how the combat Canadian flag worn on Reg and Res uniforms could be seen as taboo for Cadets because it is a part of the CF uniform. Cadets do not wear the CF uniform they wear a Cadet uniform. Do you get me now?

If you're responsible for your actions the what is this:

I would be one of those cadets that couldn't be convinced to remove it.

and this:

I would do what I was told if it wasn't for the fact I bought it with my own money.

You may take responsibility but you are not acting responsible - there are two sides.

I have zero issue with this getting back on track. What bothers me is that you expect to be able to post something and not have someone debate it and it almost seems as though you are using the "back on track" statement to hide out from the debate. I have not much patience for threads here these days as the threads in the cadet forums always seem to end the same way - me baning my head against the wall and feeling drunk. I re-opened this because I thought that there were good discussion points and we needed to get away from the conversations of Cadets looking like soldiers, it had been beaten to death. And what happens? We find something else to beat to death.

You made points, I countered them - that is called debate.