Bush on "Meet The Press."

[dutchie]

Order of precedence aside, I feel that Kerry's merit as a soldier falls somewhere between 'ordinary' and just shy of 'hero'. He certainly served with honour, but whether he was extraordinarily brave or not is up for debate, and to me, not that important to his political aspirations. Would I choose a certified War Hero over an ordinary soldier? Not for that reason alone, I wouldn't.

The really interesting thing in the interview for me was President Bush's comments on WMD. If you recall, that was the main stated reason for the invasion. Once it became clear that they were not to be found, the President tried to make us believe that they went to war because Saddam COULD have obtained WMD. His story changed.

Unlike previous posts by others, I will not quote Michael Moore or F/911 as I feel his sources are suspect and his agenda quite obvious. However, to me, Bush either had the intelligence fabricated to conform to his desire to invade Iraq, or the intelligence was flawed and he acted upon that flawed intel. Either way, the reason he invaded, or at least what he stated the reason was at the time, was that Saddam had WMD. He now admits that they are not there.
Second point: What did Iraq do to deserve invasion? He reportedly offered money to the families of suicide bombers, but others have done far worse (Iran actually committed state terrorism against the US, Israel, and the US and they weren't invaded). So you can't use that excuse. Saddam had the desire to obtain WMD, but North Korea might actually have Nukes, and Syria has Chem/Bio weapons, Pakistan (Nukes), etc...so you can't use that one either. The truth is that Saddam, although a monster to his own people, was not much of a threat to the US after the first Gulf War. Bush was not justified in his invasion, and his own comments prove that. We don't need Michael Moore and left-ist slanted propaganda to point it out, a comparison of his comments before and after do that for us.

ps - no man who attains the position of President could possibly be stupid. He may not be that gifted when it comes to public speaking, but he is no dummy.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Kerry had some time (in Vietnamese waters) prior to his swift boat duties, if memory serves.

Under regulations one could request to be sent home after receiving three purple hearts.  I don't recollect reading that one was sent home regardless.  Draw your own conclusions about the nature of the wounds and the character of a man who would take advantage of that regulation under those circumstances, particularly one who admitted at one point to having requested swift boats _before the mission profile change to become more hazardous_ because he didn't want to be too involved in the war.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Kerry had some time (in Vietnamese waters) prior to his swift boat duties, if memory serves.

Under regulations one could request to be sent home after receiving three purple hearts.  I don't recollect reading that one was sent home regardless.  Draw your own conclusions about the nature of the wounds and the character of a man who would take advantage of that regulation under those circumstances, particularly one who admitted at one point to having requested swift boats _before the mission profile change to become more hazardous_ because he didn't want to be too involved in the war.

But my point is that even if he did request the time off due to his Purple Hearts - serious or not - you imply that he was doing it to get out of six months more of combat duty.   My point is that most combatant officers in the Marines and Army, if I understand it correctly, only did six months tours in front line units anyway, so if the Navy was similar, he was only requesting to be relieved from combat duty for as much as two months and perhaps much less.

But as I say, I don't know if that is accurate or not.

 

[Brad Sallows]

More myth propagation.  The people who state that a pre-emptive war was unjustified because it turns out Iraq did not have WMD are wrong.  What was proposed was a _preventive_ war based on indications that Hussein could, or was trying to, acquire WMD.  Those indications were not mere fabrications by the US; they were the shared international majority opinion and Hussein was not exactly forthright in setting people at ease.  Whether you agree with either as a cause for war or not, whether sanctioned by the UN or not, whether Hussein was a threat to the US or not, the latter - preventive, just in case - is how the WMD case for war was originally laid out.

For the UN Charter absolutists among you, yes, a preventive war is one step further removed from immediate self-defence than a pre-emptive war.

Almost any decision a nation makes with respect to other nations is going to be based on intelligence.  Intelligence is rarely either correct or incorrect; reliability falls on a spectrum between the absolutes.

Of excuses for war, there is no doctrine which states a nation must act against the worst offenders first.  If state-sponsored terrorism is a just excuse for war, then any state sponsoring terrorism may be attacked.  Any state over the threshold of pretext for war is fair game.  There are no rules which require you to pick the biggest apples first, or to refrain from picking any if you can't pick them all.

 

[Brad Sallows]

My point is that if he requested to return home (and was not ordered home) it doesn't matter whether it was two months, two weeks, or two days - it tends to lessen the image of the valiant war hero putting duty before self.

 

[Infanteer]

Hmm...good posts, nice to see there was something salvageable here.  Now where did our mini-Michael Moore get to....

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

No I think Mr. Dorosh pretty much nailed the way politics seem to be played down there and maybe that hit a senstive nerve. Mr. Baker.
I'm no fan of our" backroom playing" either but it hasen' sunk to the levels down there, YET.

 

[Brad Sallows]

People who claim Canadian media provide more objective reporting than American media simply aren't hearing the slant they prefer from the American media.  Canadian agencies each have a bias.  It's laughable when even a film reviewer can't refrain from finding some excuse to snipe at some favoured political target.

 

[Jarnhamar]

What exactly did Kerry do to be considered a war hero?  Not to knock someone wounded in the line of duty but please tell me being wounded 3 times doesn't make him a hero.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Presumably his Silver Star.  It is also merely possible that he benefits from the current fashion of overstatement - every veteran a hero, every innocent casualty a genocide, etc.

 

[muskrat89]

Another perspective on Kerry's hero status :   www.swiftvets.com

 

[Kaitain]

I wish Americans could be like Canadians and decide elections on WHAT THE CANDIDATES WILL DO TO FIX THE PROBLEMS rather than WHAT DID HE DO THIRTY YEARS AGO.    As boring as our election was, it was nice to see the candidates and the people talk about current problems and how they will fix them.   Character issues were made, but they dealt with the present, not the 1970s.   I'll be glad when this crappy election is over with already, yearlong campaigning is a bit much.

What the fuuck are   you talking about?   I'm talking about an illegal coup that happened 3 years ago, I'm talking about a bullshit war that's happening right now....

 

[Kaitain]

It occurs to me that the people who have gone insane with rage and frustration to the point of losing their objectivity are not necessarily people on the Republican side of the spectrum.

I beg to differ.  AM radio is not filled with liberal hate mongers, it's filled with conservatives spewing their right-wing neo-fascist propaganda.  As annoying and silly as liberals are, they haven't turned the word "conservative" into a dirty word, while the conservatives HAVE turned "liberal" into a dirty word.  A word that often leaves them spitting as if something vile had crossed their tongue leaving behind the bitter taste of bile.  Apparently living in Canada you don't get to see or hear the constant hatred regurgitated by mindless ditto heads. 

The irony being they don't care that their "hero" is another drug addict high on hillbilly heroin, their protestations that those filthy druggies should be locked up for good instantly forgotten.  They moral outrage they foster and nourish for Howard Stern's words is instantly forgoten when it's their own Vice President telling a U.S. Senator to perform an impossible act upon himself on the Senate floor.  When that happens is just a good ol' boy expressing himself and by gosh golly he well ought to have that right, oh but fuck Howard Stern.

Are you poorly educated, ill- or misinformed, or just being deliberately obtuse by placing your beliefs about how you would like things to be ahead of things as they really are?

Well I am a victim of the American skool system, but you are simply proving my point.  You KNOW Bush was lying, is lying, and will continue to lie as long as it serves his purpose.  You KNOW he got out of Vietnam because of his father's money and political connections.  You KNOW he broke federal law when he had his minions expose the identity of an undercover Intelligence officer simply because her husband had the audacity to speak out against the "President."  You KNOW he shouldn't be running for a second term but instead should be facing a special Courts-Martial for treason.  And yet faced with all the facts you refuse to even THINK about it.  Instead you would rather attack a fellow veteran, a man that proved his worth in combat.  Even republicans have said the attack on Kerry's military record is "Dishonest and dishonerable."

I know I won't change your mind, either through lack of intellect, education, or just blinding hatred you lack the ability to hold two opposing thoughts in your head.  Good luck with that.

 

[Kaitain]

Another perspective on Kerry's hero status :   www.swiftvets.com

I see you've done your research... NOT!  That is the bullshyt organization put together by Bush supports to attack Kerry.  Why don't you ask yourself, "Gee how many people on that site actually served with Kerry?  Gee why do Republicans even think these guys are "Dishonest and Dishonerable?""  One of the so called witnesses to Kerry's actions is a political hit man hired by Tricky Dick in the 70's to try to bring down the growing political power of the anti-war movement, and guess what, he's moved from working for a Dick to working for a Bush.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

What the fuuck are  you talking about?  I'm talking about an illegal coup that happened 3 years ago, I'm talking about a bullshit war that's happening right now....

There was no "coup" and the drug addiction and evasion of service you are whining about happened 30 years ago. You've got four posts in total on this forum, none of which have to do with the Canadian Army, and in fact, it since you show an inability to respond intelligently to anyone else's point of view, I would rather suggest you are merely a troll looking for a fight.  If you want to whine and cry about 30 years of alleged misconduct on the part of the US President, I suggest you do it someplace else.  I'm going to lock this one up since I see it going downhill from here.

This is a political forum - not a place to rant and rave, but to discuss and consider the opinions of others.  Namecalling and swearing don't seem to fit into our vision of that...this IS Canada after all.

Have a nice day, eh.