daftandbarmy
Army.ca Dinosaur
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Kirkhill said:
awesome... and then you can roast what you kill on the foot long sword bayonet
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You can actually mount a bayonet and then install the BFA on a C7.
I did it ONCE in Wainwright -- seemed the Enemy Force thought it was a bit much ;D
I would be very surprised if for SARP III the weapons have bayonet lugs.
One reason for that is (other than Colt Canada with the C8SFW) most everyone is learning from high speed video and endurance firing that moving the gas port forward on the M4/M16 style guns is a better position, a position that does not offer an area for a a bayo lug.
I did it ONCE in Wainwright -- seemed the Enemy Force thought it was a bit much ;D
I would be very surprised if for SARP III the weapons have bayonet lugs.
One reason for that is (other than Colt Canada with the C8SFW) most everyone is learning from high speed video and endurance firing that moving the gas port forward on the M4/M16 style guns is a better position, a position that does not offer an area for a a bayo lug.
daftandbarmy
Army.ca Dinosaur
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Infidel-6 said:
An astonishing admission from a bayonet denier, if I may say so
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At the time it seemed to be the thing to do. I used to beleive in bayonets, the 'psych' it gave to troops is impressive, I taught a Reserve Basic class in Petawawa in '94 and they ate it up.
Fast forward several more years - I realized that artificially pumping them up with the bayo, was at a detriment to communication, movement, and shooting.
I have muzzle struck people and shot people, but I have never been in a situation where I needed a bayonet.
My biggest concern with the bayonet is the false sense of confidence it inspires, and that leadership or individuals will error greatly and end up in a WWI charge into a MG.
Nothing I have seen in my days has led me to beleive the bayonet is a useful tool, as anything I have seen done by the bayonet would have been better done by another tool.
Fast forward several more years - I realized that artificially pumping them up with the bayo, was at a detriment to communication, movement, and shooting.
I have muzzle struck people and shot people, but I have never been in a situation where I needed a bayonet.
My biggest concern with the bayonet is the false sense of confidence it inspires, and that leadership or individuals will error greatly and end up in a WWI charge into a MG.
Nothing I have seen in my days has led me to beleive the bayonet is a useful tool, as anything I have seen done by the bayonet would have been better done by another tool.
Infidel-6 said:
Yeah, but is the other tool as handily available as the bayonet? ;D
ps....I've actually seen bayonet's used in combat situations, but like you said, there are other tools. The Butt Stroke is actually far more effective if you are that close and out of bullets....
daftandbarmy
Army.ca Dinosaur
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Diggers get to keep bayonets as weapons
THE US Army says the bayonet is obsolete but Australian Diggers will continue to use it as a close-quarters weapon.
Last week the US Army ended centuries of military tradition by scrapping bayonet drill, saying the practice was outmoded.
US army instructors say it is more important to teach soldiers how to improvise in close-quarters fighting with weapons such as knives.
But the order to "fix bayonets" would be staying in the Australian Army's basic training manual, a defence spokeswoman told The Australian.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/diggers-get-to-keep-bayonets-as-weapons/story-e6frg6nf-1225847179104
The USMC is keeping it’s bayonet training as well:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article7066220.ece
THE US Army says the bayonet is obsolete but Australian Diggers will continue to use it as a close-quarters weapon.
Last week the US Army ended centuries of military tradition by scrapping bayonet drill, saying the practice was outmoded.
US army instructors say it is more important to teach soldiers how to improvise in close-quarters fighting with weapons such as knives.
But the order to "fix bayonets" would be staying in the Australian Army's basic training manual, a defence spokeswoman told The Australian.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/diggers-get-to-keep-bayonets-as-weapons/story-e6frg6nf-1225847179104
The USMC is keeping it’s bayonet training as well:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article7066220.ece
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Speaking of Australian bayonets for the F88 FOW....
M9 (early Buck, marked with Australian crows foot) production ended going on 20 yrs ago at 20,400. New DPCU pouches are being added to replace the easily lost OD originals. Many Bucks are missing this pouch period, where the Lan Kays are not even designed to take the pouch.
M9 Lan Kay - several thousand to replace the Bucks.
The above are enititled to combat arms units only (Armd/Inf/Arty/Engr).
Many thousand M7 in both M8A1 and M10 scabbards, used in other Corps and CSSB's etc. The M7's in M10 green scabbards are special Aussie contracts, US made with the crows foot on the quillon, and the scabbard itself.
Generic black US marked M10 scabbards are also in the system, along with Viet Nam era M7's in the original M8A1 scabbard. The majority of M7 bayonets are US marked makers such as Conetta, Gen Cut, etc.
An authorised Aussie mod to these M7's is to have a solid weld placed where the blade meets the base where it attaches on to the rifle. This is normally only peaned into position.
Some Eickhorn KCB 77's were also trialed in 1988, but were never adopted.
They have some rather wicked bayonet assault courses at the SOI and other places, and the bayonet is still taught in Kapooka. A combo of water and tunnel obsticals, in winter and summer. The use of pyro and smoke adds to the effect, along with blanks. Yes, F88 BFAs for rifles and carbines allow a bayonet to be fitted.
Cheers,
OWDU
EDITed for spelling
M9 (early Buck, marked with Australian crows foot) production ended going on 20 yrs ago at 20,400. New DPCU pouches are being added to replace the easily lost OD originals. Many Bucks are missing this pouch period, where the Lan Kays are not even designed to take the pouch.
M9 Lan Kay - several thousand to replace the Bucks.
The above are enititled to combat arms units only (Armd/Inf/Arty/Engr).
Many thousand M7 in both M8A1 and M10 scabbards, used in other Corps and CSSB's etc. The M7's in M10 green scabbards are special Aussie contracts, US made with the crows foot on the quillon, and the scabbard itself.
Generic black US marked M10 scabbards are also in the system, along with Viet Nam era M7's in the original M8A1 scabbard. The majority of M7 bayonets are US marked makers such as Conetta, Gen Cut, etc.
An authorised Aussie mod to these M7's is to have a solid weld placed where the blade meets the base where it attaches on to the rifle. This is normally only peaned into position.
Some Eickhorn KCB 77's were also trialed in 1988, but were never adopted.
They have some rather wicked bayonet assault courses at the SOI and other places, and the bayonet is still taught in Kapooka. A combo of water and tunnel obsticals, in winter and summer. The use of pyro and smoke adds to the effect, along with blanks. Yes, F88 BFAs for rifles and carbines allow a bayonet to be fitted.
Cheers,
OWDU
EDITed for spelling
daftandbarmy
Army.ca Dinosaur
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Overwatch Downunder said:
oops... getting a chubby now... out
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
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Thankfully bayonets for handguns never caught on
http://www.ima-usa.com/product_info.php/products_id/2804
http://www.ima-usa.com/product_info.php/products_id/2804
daftandbarmy
Army.ca Dinosaur
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Colin P said:
Not so fast old chap:
The LaserLyte Pistol Bayonet is just what you need to turn your pistol into the ultimate close quarters fighting pistol. The bayonet features a razor-sharp, full tang KA-BAR blade with a black Teflon coating. The handle is made from glass-filled nylon. The Pistol Bayonet will attach to medium to large frame pistols that have a rail, and a custom polymer sheath is included to protect the blade. Add the LaserLyte Pistol Bayonet to your pistol and you will have the ultimate tactical weapon.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=343971
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My boss now is a Scottish foreign exchange officer and he is shocked that we place such a small emphasis on bayonets.
His argument is that if you focus on maintaining stand-off in order to kill the bad guys, your soldiers will lose the warrior mindset where they want to close with the enemy and destroy him by putting your bayonet into his chest.
Whether you actually have to do that is irrelevant, just having the bayonet attached on an offensive op puts the soldier in a much more aggressive mindset.
I think there is some merit to it. I'd rather have soldiers over-hyped to kill the bad guy (assuming they're not killing everything they see), than surprised if they see him around a corner.
His argument is that if you focus on maintaining stand-off in order to kill the bad guys, your soldiers will lose the warrior mindset where they want to close with the enemy and destroy him by putting your bayonet into his chest.
Whether you actually have to do that is irrelevant, just having the bayonet attached on an offensive op puts the soldier in a much more aggressive mindset.
I think there is some merit to it. I'd rather have soldiers over-hyped to kill the bad guy (assuming they're not killing everything they see), than surprised if they see him around a corner.
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Although the bayonet can be a useful tool, too many sources are proclaiming it as no longer a useful weapon. Im sure there are going to be future situations where it can be useful, but there dont seem to be any common instances or examples of it currently being proven. Saying that, I dont think psychological reinforcement is a good enough reason for keeping it...
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Greymatters said:
Yes but the point is that it becomes manifest destiny in a way. It's not just for show, and you actually end up with soldiers who are genuinely more aggressive and thus do use their bayonets quite often for their intended purpose.
Judging the bayonet's applicability to modern warfare based on it's limited use when killing out gunned savages is short sighted. Should two well trained and well equipped first world armies go toe to toe in a real effort to defeat each other through superior violence we'll see how fast soldiers resort to using bayonets/improvised sharpened things gun-taped to barrels...
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somedude said:
While what you wrote may make perfect sense to you, it is not broadcasting a clear message. Are you sarcastically suggesting that the bayonet is unneeded, or are you saying that it should be issued because troops will McGuyver something up if they don't have one and suddenly decide they need one?
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Somedude,
If what I am reading of your post is that in modern warfare the majority of the killing will be done en masse from long ranges vice in the trenches like WWI then I can see your point.
However, "most" does not mean "all". Even if a city is floored by bombs, history has shown that it is impossible to destroy and enemy by bombs alone (Stalingrad, Berlin, etc). Even in all-out-war when the big bombs come out, in order to call territory your own you must occupy it with boots to clear out remaining resistance and that requires being up close and personal when the enemy may be around any corner.
Unless you go nucular (sic Bush humour) people will survive "superior violence" bombings. On a side note, I would argue that killing someone with a bayonet is much more violent to both involved than pushing a button on a bomb.
If what I am reading of your post is that in modern warfare the majority of the killing will be done en masse from long ranges vice in the trenches like WWI then I can see your point.
However, "most" does not mean "all". Even if a city is floored by bombs, history has shown that it is impossible to destroy and enemy by bombs alone (Stalingrad, Berlin, etc). Even in all-out-war when the big bombs come out, in order to call territory your own you must occupy it with boots to clear out remaining resistance and that requires being up close and personal when the enemy may be around any corner.
Unless you go nucular (sic Bush humour) people will survive "superior violence" bombings. On a side note, I would argue that killing someone with a bayonet is much more violent to both involved than pushing a button on a bomb.
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Aggressive mindset is best accomplished via good training to instill confidence. Not some fantasy medival device adding more length to a weapon we want shorter for CQB.
You can kill with you hands (althought trust me not the recommended method), the helmet (the NV bracket can work wonders during headbuts), a full canteen (always wanted to clobber someone with it, though the new flexible ones would probably not do as well as the old ones with a canteen cup on it).
But make no mistake killing with a rifle or pistol is a much easier method, and has less long term effects. That said, its kill or be killed, and as long as the soldier understands that its not a game, and its the best course of action for him (or her) and his buddies, then its really not a hard task to do.
Based on my experiences no one is going to convince me that adding a 6" knife to my barrel will help me in anyway shape or form. If I'm going to kill you, I will, but I can do it much easier without a bayonet. Everyone else I know with experience in killing agrees.
You can kill with you hands (althought trust me not the recommended method), the helmet (the NV bracket can work wonders during headbuts), a full canteen (always wanted to clobber someone with it, though the new flexible ones would probably not do as well as the old ones with a canteen cup on it).
But make no mistake killing with a rifle or pistol is a much easier method, and has less long term effects. That said, its kill or be killed, and as long as the soldier understands that its not a game, and its the best course of action for him (or her) and his buddies, then its really not a hard task to do.
Based on my experiences no one is going to convince me that adding a 6" knife to my barrel will help me in anyway shape or form. If I'm going to kill you, I will, but I can do it much easier without a bayonet. Everyone else I know with experience in killing agrees.
My appologies. What I said made sense as I typed it, however reading it later in the day it's pretty obvious that I should've worded things different.
Basically, Petamocto is on the same page.
I think that judging the bayonets applicability to modern warfare based on TTPs and experience developed during counter-insurgency operations against an enemy that is easily out manoeuvred and is clearly out gunned is short sighted.
Once your magazine runs dry you need a weapon of last resort, and I don't know about the guy above me, but I'd rather not bring a canteen cup to a bayonet fight...
Basically, Petamocto is on the same page.
I think that judging the bayonets applicability to modern warfare based on TTPs and experience developed during counter-insurgency operations against an enemy that is easily out manoeuvred and is clearly out gunned is short sighted.
Once your magazine runs dry you need a weapon of last resort, and I don't know about the guy above me, but I'd rather not bring a canteen cup to a bayonet fight...
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