daftandbarmy
Army.ca Dinosaur
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Wonderbread said:
Good heavens man, don't give up! Attack, attack, attack! aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!! (frothy mouthed stabbing sounds)
Just to liven up the debate.....here's some fodder..... ;D
General: Drop Bayonet From Army Training
January 28, 2010 The State, Columbia, S.C.
Article Link
Army basic training needs to get back to basics.
That's the word from Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling, who's in charge of overhauling Army training.
Soldiers are taught a number of skills, but don't have the time to master all of them, said Hertling, who's assigned to the Army's Training and Doctrine Command at Fort Monroe, Va.
"We need to make sure that what we're training is a good Soldier we can hand over to their first unit and make sure they're ready for combat," Hertling, deputy commanding general for initial military training, said Wednesday during a visit at Fort Jackson, S.C.
Before the war on terrorism began in 2001, U.S. troops trained to fight a large, mechanized force like the Russian army in the woods and mountains of eastern Europe.
But in recent years, basic training has undergone a number of changes as the Army adapts to an enemy in Afghanistan and Iraq that lives among the general population and travels by pickup and donkey cart.
More on link
Argylls fight hand to hand in Iraq
16 May 2004 By BRIAN BRADY WESTMINSTER EDITOR
Article Link
SCOTTISH troops fixed bayonets and fought hand to hand with a Shi’ite militia in southern Iraq in one of their fiercest clashes since the war was declared more than a year ago, it was reported last night.
Soldiers from the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders mounted what were described as "classic infantry assaults" on firing and mortar positions held by more than 100 fighters loyal to the outlawed cleric Moqtada al-Sadr, according to military sources
At least 20 men from al-Sadr’s army were believed killed in more than three hours of fighting - the highest toll reported in any single incident involving British forces in the past 12 months.
Nine fighters were captured and three British soldiers injured, none seriously.
"It was very bloody and it was difficult to count all their dead," one source was quoted as saying. "There were bodies floating in the river."
The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders were drawn into the fighting when soldiers in two Land-Rovers were ambushed on Friday afternoon about 15 miles east of the city of Amara. The soldiers escaped, only to be ambushed a second time by a larger group of militia, armed with machine-guns, rocket-propelled grenades and mortars.
Reinforcements were summoned from the Princess of Wales’s Royal Regiment at a base nearby. "There was some pretty fierce hand-to-hand fighting with bayonets fixed," the source added. "There were some classic assaults on mortar positions held by the al-Sadr forces."
Official spokesman Major Ian Clooney confirmed the Mehdi army "took a pretty heavy knocking", but refused to specify tactics. "This was certainly an intense engagement," he added.
More on link
US Army’s own assessment of that fight.
British bayonet charge in BASRA.
Article Link
Prepared by the U.S. Urban Warfare Analysis Center:
Executive Summary:
In May 2004, approximately 20 British troops in Basra were ambushed and forced out of their vehicles by about 100 Shiite militia fighters. When ammunition ran low, the British troops fixed bayonets and charged the enemy. About 20 militiamen were killed in the assault without any British deaths.
The bayonet charge appea More..red to succeed for three main reasons. First, the attack was the first of its kind in that region and captured the element of surprise. Second, enemy fighters probably believed jihadist propaganda stating that coalition troops were cowards unwilling to fight in close combat, further enhancing the element of surprise. Third, the strict discipline of the British troops overwhelmed the ability of the militia fighters to organize a cohesive counteraction.
The effects of this tactical action in Basra are not immediately applicable elsewhere, but an important dominant theme emerges regarding the need to avoid predictable patterns of behavior within restrictive rules of engagement. Commanders should keep adversaries off balance with creative feints and occasional shows of force lest they surrender the initiative to the enemy.
I. Overview of Bayonet Charge
On 21 May 2004, Mahdi militiamen engaged a convoy consisting of approximately 20 British troops from the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders 55 miles north of Basra. A squad from the Princess of Wales regiment came to their assistance. What started as an attack on a passing convoy ended with at least 35 militiamen dead and just three British troops wounded. The militiamen engaged a force that had restrictive rules of engagement prior to the incident that prevented them from returning fire. What ensued was an example of irregular warfare by coalition troops that achieved a tactical victory over a numerically superior foe with considerable firepower.
More on link
General: Drop Bayonet From Army Training
January 28, 2010 The State, Columbia, S.C.
Article Link
Army basic training needs to get back to basics.
That's the word from Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling, who's in charge of overhauling Army training.
Soldiers are taught a number of skills, but don't have the time to master all of them, said Hertling, who's assigned to the Army's Training and Doctrine Command at Fort Monroe, Va.
"We need to make sure that what we're training is a good Soldier we can hand over to their first unit and make sure they're ready for combat," Hertling, deputy commanding general for initial military training, said Wednesday during a visit at Fort Jackson, S.C.
Before the war on terrorism began in 2001, U.S. troops trained to fight a large, mechanized force like the Russian army in the woods and mountains of eastern Europe.
But in recent years, basic training has undergone a number of changes as the Army adapts to an enemy in Afghanistan and Iraq that lives among the general population and travels by pickup and donkey cart.
More on link
Argylls fight hand to hand in Iraq
16 May 2004 By BRIAN BRADY WESTMINSTER EDITOR
Article Link
SCOTTISH troops fixed bayonets and fought hand to hand with a Shi’ite militia in southern Iraq in one of their fiercest clashes since the war was declared more than a year ago, it was reported last night.
Soldiers from the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders mounted what were described as "classic infantry assaults" on firing and mortar positions held by more than 100 fighters loyal to the outlawed cleric Moqtada al-Sadr, according to military sources
At least 20 men from al-Sadr’s army were believed killed in more than three hours of fighting - the highest toll reported in any single incident involving British forces in the past 12 months.
Nine fighters were captured and three British soldiers injured, none seriously.
"It was very bloody and it was difficult to count all their dead," one source was quoted as saying. "There were bodies floating in the river."
The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders were drawn into the fighting when soldiers in two Land-Rovers were ambushed on Friday afternoon about 15 miles east of the city of Amara. The soldiers escaped, only to be ambushed a second time by a larger group of militia, armed with machine-guns, rocket-propelled grenades and mortars.
Reinforcements were summoned from the Princess of Wales’s Royal Regiment at a base nearby. "There was some pretty fierce hand-to-hand fighting with bayonets fixed," the source added. "There were some classic assaults on mortar positions held by the al-Sadr forces."
Official spokesman Major Ian Clooney confirmed the Mehdi army "took a pretty heavy knocking", but refused to specify tactics. "This was certainly an intense engagement," he added.
More on link
US Army’s own assessment of that fight.
British bayonet charge in BASRA.
Article Link
Prepared by the U.S. Urban Warfare Analysis Center:
Executive Summary:
In May 2004, approximately 20 British troops in Basra were ambushed and forced out of their vehicles by about 100 Shiite militia fighters. When ammunition ran low, the British troops fixed bayonets and charged the enemy. About 20 militiamen were killed in the assault without any British deaths.
The bayonet charge appea More..red to succeed for three main reasons. First, the attack was the first of its kind in that region and captured the element of surprise. Second, enemy fighters probably believed jihadist propaganda stating that coalition troops were cowards unwilling to fight in close combat, further enhancing the element of surprise. Third, the strict discipline of the British troops overwhelmed the ability of the militia fighters to organize a cohesive counteraction.
The effects of this tactical action in Basra are not immediately applicable elsewhere, but an important dominant theme emerges regarding the need to avoid predictable patterns of behavior within restrictive rules of engagement. Commanders should keep adversaries off balance with creative feints and occasional shows of force lest they surrender the initiative to the enemy.
I. Overview of Bayonet Charge
On 21 May 2004, Mahdi militiamen engaged a convoy consisting of approximately 20 British troops from the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders 55 miles north of Basra. A squad from the Princess of Wales regiment came to their assistance. What started as an attack on a passing convoy ended with at least 35 militiamen dead and just three British troops wounded. The militiamen engaged a force that had restrictive rules of engagement prior to the incident that prevented them from returning fire. What ensued was an example of irregular warfare by coalition troops that achieved a tactical victory over a numerically superior foe with considerable firepower.
More on link
M
MikeL
Guest
GAP said:
So Ft Jackson is getting rid of the bayonet, I wonder if Ft Benning will ditch the bayonet aswell for its Infantry OSUT/AIT.
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In mostly likleyhood the next Army (American) weapon will not have a bayonet lug.
Longer rail, freefloating - and no provision for a bayonet.
More interest in adding a suppressor to all weapons that a bayonet.
Finally folks are realizing the 19th Century called and wants its tactics and knife back...
Longer rail, freefloating - and no provision for a bayonet.
More interest in adding a suppressor to all weapons that a bayonet.
Finally folks are realizing the 19th Century called and wants its tactics and knife back...
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
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I hear Sparky is demanding that each "Gavin" to be equipped with 106mm RR's with bayonet lug, which apparently the Marines are screaming for! 
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Kirkhill said:
The real purists will just carry a plug bayonet, ninjasnipers will carry one that looks like Sykes Fairbairn.
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Just something I read on the Internet. I don't know who said it:
"Every generation since the invention of gunpowder has thought that the bayonet -- the infantryman's spear of last resort -- would become as obsolete as Achilles' shield. It never has. Do you know why? Because the rifleman is forever being called upon to 'restore order.' Sometimes that means just showing our serious intentions without shooting some poor asshole as an example to the rest. Fixing bayonets allows us to announce our intentions. It also allows us to keep disarmed prisoners moving to the rear, or crowds of civilians in line at a disaster recovery center. Because merely showing it is not always enough to prevent its use, you will be taught how to use it in combat."
"Every generation since the invention of gunpowder has thought that the bayonet -- the infantryman's spear of last resort -- would become as obsolete as Achilles' shield. It never has. Do you know why? Because the rifleman is forever being called upon to 'restore order.' Sometimes that means just showing our serious intentions without shooting some poor asshole as an example to the rest. Fixing bayonets allows us to announce our intentions. It also allows us to keep disarmed prisoners moving to the rear, or crowds of civilians in line at a disaster recovery center. Because merely showing it is not always enough to prevent its use, you will be taught how to use it in combat."
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Here's a fuller version:
http://westernrifleshooters.blogspot.com/2008_09_01_archive.html
You've selected part of a passage being used to argue against a rifle because it was considered unsuitable (i.e., insufficiently rugged) for use as a bayonet fighting weapon. Note that the rifle being criticized as inappropriate for use as a bayonet (i.e., Mr. McNamara's Mouse Gun), and therefore unsuitable as an infantry weapons was the M-16.
See M16 Adoption
Gee, what rifles are we using and what were they derived from? ...... :
http://westernrifleshooters.blogspot.com/2008_09_01_archive.html
You've selected part of a passage being used to argue against a rifle because it was considered unsuitable (i.e., insufficiently rugged) for use as a bayonet fighting weapon. Note that the rifle being criticized as inappropriate for use as a bayonet (i.e., Mr. McNamara's Mouse Gun), and therefore unsuitable as an infantry weapons was the M-16.
See M16 Adoption
Gee, what rifles are we using and what were they derived from? ...... :
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PanaEng said:
Are you saying it's not still lighter in weight and having plastic vs wood furniture, which were the core traditionalists' arguments against it vice the M14 in 1970 - which is the context of the posted quote?
The point had nothing to do with the evolution of the M16 design into the modern variants or the C7.
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but that is certainly what you were implying - at least that is what I read with the roll-eyes thingy.Michael O'Leary said:
Anyway, yes, the M16, when that evaluation came out it wasn't up to par.
Even the C7's we got in 87 (2 CER) were weak - it seemed that every time we jumped one or two would break or bent the barrel.
cheers,
Frank
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PanaEng said:
My use of the "roll-eyes thingy" was a comment on the invalidity of the argument against the M16 because of a claimed unsuitability as a bayonet fighting weapon, yet it has become a dominant weapon design in many nations without that purported deficiency having been established to be a major, or even realistic, deficiency. Bayonets are, after all, the purpose of most of the almost 500 posts in this thread. I will try to be more precise in explaining my use of emoticons in future.
daftandbarmy
Army.ca Dinosaur
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Out of curiosity, does anyone know what they're teaching at the Battle School these days re: bayonets? Time was you 'fixed bayonets, changed mags' before heading off to death or glory (e.g., before departing the attack position for the enemy trenches). iper:
iper:
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daftandbarmy said:Out of curiosity, does anyone know what they're teaching at the Battle School these days re: bayonets? Time was you 'fixed bayonets, changed mags' before heading off to death or glory (e.g., before departing the attack position for the enemy trenches).
Wow, I haven't heard that particular phrase in a long time! I've fixed bayonets on exercise in a defense position just before the pop-up targets were to be started in Fort Jackson caused quite a stir among the American range controllers and various "floppers" watching the exercise. The moral factor for our troops was quite high (and no pop ups were able to penetrate our FPF and reach the trenches
). I've also fixed bayonets in a live fire platoon attack, but this was done just prior to the assaulting sections crossing the line of departure.I suspect a large reason we don't say that anymore is most of the time on EX a BFA is mounted on the weapon, precluding bayonets, and any "force on force" exercise with cold steel in play would result in many unfortunate accidents.
We still teach the assaulter follows the grenade into the trench with the weapon on automatic and to "bayonet anyone you don't get with the burst", so it is there by implication.
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The tangent has been removed. Back on topic please.
Milnet.ca Staff
Milnet.ca Staff
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