Base closures?

[Loachman]

Helicopter support for their various courses would suffer dramatically. It's a challenge to meet all requests as it is.

 

[Blackadder1916]

With all this talk about moving (or not) any number of training establishments and even mention that a new facility is in the works for at least one in Borden, I am reminded about an important discussion point we had when planning (and designing and building) the "new" CFMSS.  Well it was "new" when I was involved in the process approaching thirty years ago.  And that point was "utilization rate" - how much of the facility would be used per year.  From my long ago experience, it is something that DND (as well as other government departments) did not get right very often.  Of course, since size determines budget, a lot of work goes into justifying to TB the space that you want for your shiny new building.  And a lot of the statistics used for that justification are derived from past (sometimes long past) utilization rather than any firm projection of future use.  I wonder if it has improved any in the last couple of decades.

The CF of the 1980s was significantly larger than that of today, and, of course, as we often "plan for the last war", many of the concepts (and assumptions) that were used in the planning process for facilities that were eventually built in the 1990s originated in thinking from the 1970s (and earlier).  That, anyway, is my perspective (in hindsight) on that particular project and a few others that I observed.

Take Borden as an example, our largest training base (?).  How much of the footprint of the base as a whole and the schools individually is actually used on a daily basis?  How much duplication (in both staff and spaces) is there among the several schools (or should I be saying "training centres" in keeping with new terminology)?  I do recall that question was actually asked of us as we developed the SOR.  We, of course, had no idea what other branches were doing in their training facilities nor was there any central planning.  A standard reply would obviously be that, because the schools in Borden are so physically separated, it would be counterproductive to use empty classrooms in one school for students from another branch.  It keeps a lot of petty fiefdoms open.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I very much see the logic, indeed the operational necessity in maintaining the training areas; I also understand and agree the logic in maintaining large troop garrisons in larger urban centres ~ so I support having (nearly) bare training areas, with most vehicles and equipment (and sufficient maintainers) there and only a few sets plus plenty of simulators in the urban garrisons.

(I still wish we had, decades and, indeed, almost a century ago, built large joint army/air force bases, but ...)

So, it seems that the best options are to consolidate on fewer large bases ... maybe starting with moving all of NDHQ and almost all Ottawa units into the HUGE complex on Moody Drive ... and, yes, I mean moving DND out of Gatineau and moving most of Leitrim, too (the antennas (and some rx equipment) can be relocated to even more remote areas and the receivers (parts of them anyway) can be remoted to "set rooms" in a nice warm, dry, big and very secure HQ complex.

 

[George Wallace]

So, it seems that the best options are to consolidate on fewer large bases ... maybe starting with moving all of NDHQ and almost all Ottawa units into the HUGE complex on Moody Drive ... and, yes, I mean moving DND out of Gatineau and moving most of Leitrim, too (the antennas (and some rx equipment) can be relocated to even more remote areas and the receivers (parts of them anyway) can be remoted to "set rooms" in a nice warm, dry, big and very secure HQ complex.

Well, Connaught is practically right across the street.  It could use some new infrastructure in the way of Barracks/Quarters.

 

[Happy Guy]

There are no plans to move close Star Top and move the staff over to the Carling Campus.  Louis St Laurent (LSTL) stays put.  The building's lease, where my unit is located, is scheduled to be terminated in 2017 or 2018 so I'm guessing it'll move to the Carling Campus along with the other occupants.

 

[kratz]

Under our current system, Borden is an easy target to close.
If we look at history, and think of future surge needs, Borden continues to
be a valuable piece of real-estate.

I agree. Today the base is underutilized, for it's position and value. But IF....we ever NEED the asset, we'd never be able to call on one like Borden again, if we sold it off.  As a military, we are still pillared  for Georgetown's training area. No Canadian government could gather enough land, quick enough the size and usefulness of Borden....if we had a sudden need.

 

[ArmyRick]

Borden training area is not all that grand, its kind of small and restricted.

From an Army perspective, keeping all training areas intact is smart. Consolidating where we can in other areas is more ideal.

Can we really afford to give up any bases?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

This said, and please pardon my ignorance of Air Force matters, could someone explain to me how moving the MH squadrons from Shearwater to Greenwood and Pat Bay to Comox would make sense and be considered "base closures"?

12 Wing is part of CFB Halifax, but I think we are focusing on the peas and not the steak to look solely at that aspect.

I mean: What is the point of having to fly 120 kms (Greenwood) or 180 kms (Comox) for the helicopters every time, just to join or return from the ship you are attached to? Moreover, is that convenient for the technical personnel of the Air Dets to have to drive to and fro from Comox to Esquimalt or Greenwood to Halifax every time they are deployed or return from deployment?

What is point in maintaining 2 complete airfield infrastructures?  As it stands now, 14 Wing houses both fixed and rotary Wing and can take C-17s any day of the week.  The same cannot be said for Shearwater.  As for the tech's, the simple solution is called "taking a CAF bus", in the interest of paying for only 1 airfield and base to support maritime aviation types in the RCAF.  I think the cost of a bus ride every now and then would have merit in comparing the costs of maintaining all the ramps, taxiways, tower/nav aids/RADAR systems.

Convenience? When did the military every consider that part of the equation?  5 Bde used to travel to Gagetown to use the training area.  ;D

Finally, since Pat Bay and Shearwater already are part of CFB Esquimalt and CFB Halifax anyway, and those bases will not close as a result of such move, how would such a move be anything but simply moving around the same number of people, equipment structure and expenses without simplifying the overall CF administration one iota?

Running 2 airfields should be less expensive than running 4?  Owning/operating 4 cars is going to usually be more expensive than owning operating 2 cars. 

Now, I know I am about to be crucified, but if you want to "close bases" would it not make more sense to close CFB Greenwood and move its units to Shearwater, leaving the overall administration into a single CFB Halifax? (p.s.: I know about the weather conditions, i.e. fog at Shearwater, so don't give me that one).

People in the 12 Wing area complain when there are short duration night flights.  Imagine adding the # of flights that happen between 413 (fixed and rotary wing, operational SAR Sqn), 404, 405 and 415 Sqns plus some other folks that fly into Greenwood/make stops in the valley.

AFAIK, the reason the Shearwater airshow was moved out to Stanfield was people complained about the noise.  That was one day a year.  Imagine how they would love sustained flying ops  8)

Why else would it be possibly cheaper to move Swater -> Greenwood and not the other way around?  PLD.

Now, keep in mind this is just guesstimation on my part;  I am in no way up to speed on costs of the current way and 'if we did it that way'.  Just my  :2c: from the cheap seats.  :nod:

 

[George Wallace]

Borden training area is not all that grand, its kind of small and restricted.

From an Army perspective, keeping all training areas intact is smart. Consolidating where we can in other areas is more ideal.

Can we really afford to give up any bases?

Besides the CAF, CFB Borden is also the Eastern location for the Cadet movement's summer Camps.  The closure of Borden would mean that some other Base would inherit that function.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Really? We are going to make Defence Infrastructure decisions based upon Cadet Camps?

 

[George Wallace]

Really? We are going to make Defence Infrastructure decisions based upon Cadet Camps?

Who knows?  The optics may be played out.  Where would you suggest they move the Cadet Camp?

To add to the points already made about the facilities, airstripe, etc., Borden is also the Support Base for Meaford, and surrounding area.  Who would then become the Support Base if Borden is closed?  Would it be feasible to move all that to Meaford and take up even more of what limited Training Area Meaford has?

The question of closing Borden has a lot more factors involved than some seem to have in mind.

 

[bLUE fOX]

I thought I read somewhere that when London downsized it became a detachment of Toronto, and when that downsized the both became a detachment of Kingston.

Regardless, why don't we look at getting rid of leased sites like Portage La Prairie and Gimli and consolidating those functions at sites that we still own? If there are really those big of savings to be had either leasing back sites (like this mentioned above) or contracting out maintenance and operations on the sites we do own (like Meaford and to a lesser extant Alert and the Canadian Forces College), why isn't this being done at more places?

 

[ArmyRick]

To the response about the Cadet movement, does anybody in the Forces really want to deal with 50,000 upset Moms and Dads because Cadet camps are closed?

There are alot of other reasons to NOT close Borden. Way too many schools, way too much logistical support for surrounding units, home of 400 Squadron, it was an alternative place to train recruits during the big build up a decade ago (St Jean overload). On and On.

Meaford is a very valuable base and generates income (police and private uses during the slow times) it trains alot of soldiers (DP1 infantry and most of the PAT in Kingston and Borden conduct their BMQ(L) at Meaford), as well CANSOFCOM likes the location. Not too mention the majority of the P Res ARmy in 4 Div train their in summer. Meaford has a very high use. 

Just looking at my end of the world, I can not see what in 4 Div we should or could close down without a large negative impact. I suspect the whole army is in the same boat. I can not speak for the other divisions as well. I think the 60s and 90s we kind of consolidated things to death. Unless we want to change the structure of the army, how can we down size?

How about a non-army place? I did my ILP in St Jean college. Very scenic and beautiful but really? Why keep that open? Consolidate it maybe and do ILP/ALP/CWO Q at RMC perhaps or Borden or Gagetown? Anybody want to defend keeping St Jean NCMPD open? Takers? I am all ears?

 

[ArmyRick]

Or how about shutting down St Jean altogether?

Have Recruit training at Borden and a few other locations? Or decentralize recruit training and have a common Recruit standards group that oversees all national recruit training?

I remember while up at Meaford we ran a few BMQs to take the load off of St jean and Borden a decade ago, and we were told quietly on the side that we did the best job of the three locations mentioned. Having all combat arms instructors kind of helps.

What say you? Ditch the so called mega? and close everything military St Jean? Yar? Yes, I put forward a pirates yar.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Problem is it takes away from the French mafia

 

[jollyjacktar]

Problem is it takes away from the French mafia

And why anything in Gatineau is untouchable.

 

[The Bread Guy]

To the response about the Cadet movement, does anybody in the Forces on Parliament Hill really want to deal with 50,000 upset Moms and Dads because Cadet camps are closed?

FTFY  ;D

 

[Staff Weenie]

Is there not a standing requirement that x% (25?) of all Federal infrastructure in the NCR must be on the Quebec side? I've heard this cited many times as to why certain orgs will be left in Gatineau after others consolidate in the Carling Campus.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Is there not a standing requirement that x% (25?) of all Federal infrastructure in the NCR must be on the Quebec side? I've heard this cited many times as to why certain orgs will be left in Gatineau after others consolidate in the Carling Campus.

That's what I've heard as well.

 

[BinRat55]

Or how about shutting down St Jean altogether?

Have Recruit training at Borden and a few other locations? Or decentralize recruit training and have a common Recruit standards group that oversees all national recruit training?

I remember while up at Meaford we ran a few BMQs to take the load off of St jean and Borden a decade ago, and we were told quietly on the side that we did the best job of the three locations mentioned. Having all combat arms instructors kind of helps.

What say you? Ditch the so called mega? and close everything military St Jean? Yar? Yes, I put forward a pirates yar.

Haha... we did the same thing here in Gagetown - maybe a dozen years ago now... and it's funny because WE were also told quietly on the side that we did the best job of all training locations at the time.

I don't know if it mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things, but Cornwallis was where it was at. Not just because I am an alumni... yar.