Armd Recce Reserves on Deployment: Soldiers or Fillers

[dapaterson]

George:

No offense intended - I was fixating on

I know there are even problems when Crses are announced well in advance, with the word getting to the Units requesting nominations from them.

...that should teach me to post after switching to decaf...


Recce DG:

Units should have a Reg F Capt and Reg F WO on strength (and gunners, yes, I know about your pain in that area).  A simple call to the Armd school should result in a list of all the courses being run.  In fact, certain corps ensure that the school calendar is pushed to all units, Reg and Res to ensure course availability is known to all.  Grabbing the information once a year is not an overly onerous task, and should be part of the duties of the unit trg staff.  Next week the course calendar for 06-07 will be finalized at the AITC. 

Nominations can be sent at any time.  A canny unit CO would submit a prioritised list of courses desired to their CBG, perhaps including the list in the unit's plan for the year.  Proactive vice reactive - "This is what I want" vice "Let me know if anything ever comes up."

 

[Maybee]

The call up generally means they take you as you are trained. units have enough trouble fitting in their own people in and getting all members qualified to fit the unit needs (all this between rotations/ workup training / taskings/ normal duties / leave and accounting for postings/ attrition

Thanks for the clarification Unknown C/S! I gather that was what Mr Wallace was trying to get across to me as well.

 

[geo]

big thing to remember,
once you have been fitted into a position for the deployment as a square peg - they (the employing unit) won't load you onto a course for round pegs unless they need someone qualified as a round peg in their organisation.

If you are brought in as an Infanteer to work as an infanteer - they (TF) probably won't think or considere putting you through on a crewman / gunner course... unless there is a possibility they won't have enough gunners attached and they go thru their list with a fine toothed comb.

 

[Maybee]

Geo,
That of course makes sense. But say you were an infanteer augmenting a Reg F BN on it's way somewhere and they needed LAV III drivers. Would it be unreasonable as said augmentee to expect a shot at that course? From earlier posts it also seemed that the augmentee's parent unit was still footing the bill WRT training and salary costs. If that is the case then obviously the augmentee would try to be nominated via his home unit.
Since that seems unwieldy and non sensical to me I can't imagine that is in fact how it works...but I have seen more confused ways of doing things that Army SOP so I guess it is possible.

 

[George Wallace]

Aw...come on.....use a little common sense.


If you are running a business, would you put one of your permanent employees on a career course, or the summer student placement?

 

[Maybee]

Mr Wallace. Classic! Since you put it that way...funny how a good analogy can clear something in your head pretty quickly. Thanks for that.

 

[George Wallace]

And stop calling me Mr. Wallace....I work for a living....or used to.  ;D

 

[rifleman]

Aw...come on.....use a little common sense.

If you are running a business, would you put one of your permanent employees on a career course, or the summer student placement?

Still waiting for the common sense.

First, Reservists aren't summer-replacement students. They are permanent employees, only part-time. When they are asked to deploy with a unit, if a skill is required they should get the training.

 

[George Wallace]

rifleman

You aren't getting on my nerves.  You aren't trolling for an answer that will suit you after asking the samething over and over again hoping that the answers will change.  You are smarter than all of us who have tried to answer the questions civilly and with as much patience and experience as we could.  If you want to ask the CDS for the answers next; please do.  I have the highest regard for your knowledgeable input here and abilities to grasp information given to you.  I am sure you are an asset to your organization. 

 

[rifleman]

Very nice bait, is that a cut and paste comment? I don't recall actually asking a question, however allow me bring you back to the topic.

The reality is that reservists are being asked to fill slots on tours.

We can continue to complain about it, make up reasons why it can't be done or realize that there is a Delta that needs to be covered and determine the best course of action. If the CF continues to decide that there should be an armd reserve then there should be a mechanism to utilize them in that role. If they can fill an infantry position, what does that say about the infantry trade? They don't need any formalized training?

While I agree that if a Unit that wants to spend there training budget on a Class A reservist to take a Reg Force course, then it should be budgeted for and paid for by that unit. Good Chance on that 37 or so days pay per trooper per year. But when it comes to deploying, there should be no question that some of those reservists should be trained for the mission. It's time to drop the US vs Them and get on with the job!

I guess you'll suggest I fill out my profile next..

 

[geo]

Rifleman...

It isn't a matter of us VS them..... on my little piece of real estate, there is a fairly good esprit of collaboration... better with Armd, Arty & Engr but it is happening with the infantry units.
Note that when a TF fills up it's establishment they will look around the CMBG and fill in most of their requirements with people already on site. Requirement for attachments will be for the most generic / vanilla kinda troops... only expect "sexy" taskings when there are sudden last minute holes to fill or positions where they can't find anyone else qualified to fill the bill.

(BTW, speaking about your profile - what's with the Heliborne Engineer tac sign?)

 

[Unknown C/S]

The common thread here is that Reserve soldiers want the gucci courses so they can do "cool" stuff if needed while deployed. (and really good stories for the armoury mess)

Although I tried to stay out of this sensitive reservist issue, it is time to clarify..................

If you want the tours and all the qualifications make a commitment and join the reg force. As a part time soldier evn if you did get the qualification, the skill fade upon your return to your home unit would negate any advantage of being qualified. = money and time wasted.

Please, as said before, bring the issue up with your unit. A reg force unit is not that interested in your "permanent part time" career. Until then, man that barrier or drive that pol truck like nobodys buisness and pocket all coin you earn. After all, that's why you threw your name in the hat

Now I shall turn on the fan and see what hits it  >

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

The current Armoured Recce contribution to the Task Forces appears to be one Troop of Coyotes (at eight cars).  If two Task Forces are generated and kicked out the door at time then four Troops are required each year.  To allow for a year of reconstitution and a year of training before sending the same Troop out again you should need twelve Coyote Troops.  Not counting the LdSH Recce Sqn, we have six Squadrons between the RCD and 12 RBC.  When I left the Regt last summer, I figure each Sqn could have generated two 8 car troops at a minimum.  This means that the Reg F Regts should be able to sustain this tempo without augmentation at the Troop level.  A future manning crunch could, of course, come along but I don't think that we are there.

Now, if the number of Troops required increases than Reserve augmentation would be required if we were to stick with the three year deployment cycle for a soldier.  Still, the requirement does not exist right now.

Looking at the whole GWagon recce issue, we come hard up against the Infantry currently filling that capability.  Adding a Troop of GWagons would require an increase to the TO&E, a rather significant issue and a tough sell.  

Going back to the Coyotes, having Reservists trained on Coyotes and Bisons would certainly be useful, but it is a matter of priorities.  I think that the Bisons that run around in theatre crewed by CSS folks could certainly be a Armoured task, perhaps filled by Reservists.  Coyote and Bison courses are not a simple matter, however, especially regarding Coyotes.  The Coyote PCF courses for Roto 13 and ATHENA Roto 0 were conducted in February and March 03 for deployments in August and September respectively.  There is enough collective training and TMST required in the time before a deployment without having to add individual training.  For Roto 3 and 4 the main Coyote PCF courses were conducted four to five months prior to deployment.  Coyote, Bison and LAV courses for Reserves would be best done as part of reserve indiv training and funded as such.  A pool of trained crews is an attractive option for force generators.  A pool of personnel who require individual training courses prior to deployment is not quite as attractive.

Back to courses again, Coyote courses run by the Regt fill up very quickly from within the Regt.  In my last three years there we were never saying, "Gee, we have some vacancies on this Coyote Driver course that we can't fill."  The Regts use their own instructors and qualified instructors are in short supply.  Every space is carefully considered and negotiated by the SSMs and Ops WOs.  There has simply been no spare capacity.  

We were running last minute Bison courses for the Rotos to get all the CSS drivers ready.  Perhaps a niche is available here.  Not glamourous, perhaps, but certainly essential and well within the capability of the Armoured Reserves to generate.  Expanding this idea (somewhat along the lines mentioned by Kevin a couple of pages back), certain Armoured Reserve units could adopt the Bison role as opposed to strictly recce.  Convoy operations are combat operations.  Armoured reservists could take Bison courses in the summer and the units could train and organize for convoy operations.

I have pondered the idea of forming the 10 percent pool for a given deployment from Armoured reservists.  Have them do TMST and then conduct a PCF course when the troops start their pre-deployment leave.  They stay with the Regt and continue training until they are called on as replacements.  If they don't end up going then they would be well placed to join the next roto and perhaps have a component transfer.  Looks a bit like poaching.  Sorry.

That was longer than intended (two posts while I was typing).  

Cheers,

2B

 

[geo]

you're absolutely right UKS.....
Highly technical courses that require constant practice are not very .... practical for soldiers who won't see or touch the kit again for another 2 or 3 years....

Keep thinking back to when the TCCS kit was going to be distributed and areas, in anticipation (funded by the TCCS PMO) started giving CP training to reservists who did not have the kit at their units..... by the time the kit became available, 12 or 18 months later, everything had to be taught again a second time.

 

[rifleman]

Geo - Its aviation closest to Air force.

The common thread here is that Reserve soldiers want the gucci courses so they can do "cool" stuff if needed while deployed. (and really good stories for the armoury mess)

Although I tried to stay out of this sensitive reservist issue, it is time to clarify..................

If you want the tours and all the qualifications make a commitment and join the reg force. As a part time soldier evn if you did get the qualification, the skill fade upon your return to your home unit would negate any advantage of being qualified. = money and time wasted.

Please, as said before, bring the issue up with your unit. A reg force unit is not that interested in your "pemanent part time" career. Until then, man that barrier or drive that pol truck like nobodys buisness and pocket all coin you earn. After all, that's why you threw your name in the hat

Its not about getting Gucci or "sexy" courses, its more about getting the training so that Reservists can actually be employed in their respective trades. I'm all for eliminating reserve trades that have no use for operations. Heck, theres a few reg force trades I'd eliminate as well. But as long as they exist we have to get a return on the investment

btw I'm not a reservist. but I am interested in any person that I may have to look after. "Leadership 101"

 

[geo]

"theres a few reg force trades I'd eliminate as well. "

Ohhhh.... which ones are those?

 

[Unknown C/S]

Geo - Its aviation closest to Air force.
Its not about getting Gucci or "sexy" courses, its more about getting the training so that Reservists can actually be employed in their respective trades.

Good point.
  However if the reserve unit does not have the equipment, and is not in line to recieve it then it is just wasting time. And most Res units are in this position
  Heck if you're going to qualify someone in this way then keep rack'n up the courses.  :
Seems to me they have to fly into theatre..........qualify on the mule that tows the airbus..........speaking of buses, normally they are bused from the airport to the main camp........40 pax bus on thier 404's .... :blotto:

I hope you get the picture

 

[rifleman]

Good point.
   However if the reserve unit does not have the equipment, and is not in line to recieve it then it is just wasting time. And most Res units are in this position
   Heck if you're going to qualify someone in this way then keep rack'n up the courses.  :
Seems to me they have to fly into theatre..........qualify on the mule that tows the airbus..........speaking of buses, normally they are bused from the airport to the main camp........40 pax bus on thier 404's .... :blotto:

I hope you get the picture

Sorry call me thick but I don't know many soldiers that fly themselves into theatre, drives the bus, dismounts if they get hit and clears the enemy. all while prodding for mines? ;D  I'm just talking about basic skills in their respective trades.

 

[Unknown C/S]

  I'm just talking about basic skills in their respective trades.

Rifleman,
Next time don't duck, I think my last post went over your head.

Regular Force Units are NOT mandated to qualify them on basic skills. Nor are they required to "polish" the skills they obtained through Unit/Area Res PCF courses.
When positions are posted for P Res augmentation through Area HQ, the Units are to screen members applying to ensure the member is trained as req.
If they do not have basic skills in the repective trade then why take them?

Let's be honest:
1. Deploying with a Reg force Unit in itself gives a reservist valuable experience.

2. Everything comes with a cost. Class C contracts must be paid and the cost for Rats & Qtrs for the member while deployed. (not to mention initial travel cost To the gaining unit and again final return to home unit absorbed ) are just some of the expenditures.

  Now on top of all this they want courses to qualify them on the eqipment in theatre (just in case it is needed) and costs absorbed by the gaining unit. There was no problem agreeing to fill the position when posted. Now the perception is "I'll grab all the freebies I can" Once in situ
 

 

[TCBF]

Lets be honest - "Train To Need" has created an adversarial system where units continually try to offload training costs onto other orgs.  This is a result of our crossing of cultures after unification: in the Army, we should by rights train every soldier as much as we can as fast as we can as well as we can, knowing full well that we may someday again have to expand fifty times our size in an emergency.  The Air Force, however, see each Airman as a precious Tradesman who under NO circumstances may be allowed to train higher than his 'pay and benefits envelope' requires, lest he be poached by higher paying civie employers.  Thus, the system 'controls' overtraining by an artificial and spurious cost accounting system.

Think of it: From a military readiness point of view: should your unit pay for every soldier and vehicle it takes to the field, or every soldier and vehicle it does NOT take to the field?

Since most of our MHR policies and programs are de facto obsolete civ management school ones, they are based on civie cost accounting systems which are at odds with military preparedness.

So, if I have 20 soldiers in a Troop of five Coyotes (old tour) and I am offered two slots on a PCF course, I will put two Regs on it over two Reservists - because thats two less slots my unit will  have to pay for in Canada on the next PCF course there.

Fair?

Life isn't fair.

Tom