Armd Recce Reserves on Deployment: Soldiers or Fillers

[dapaterson]

How long would it take to get qualified on a vehicle such as the Coyote? Wouldn't it be possible to extend a reservists work-up training, to incorporate the course, giving them the qualification to use it overseas? Or would it be to long and costly to do it? Just curious.

Mike

But why would we do that if we already have qualified people to deploy?  "Having the course" is not the same as having experience along with the qualification.

The longer it takes to get a reservist "ready" to deploy (adding courses, etc), the more it costs, and the less they are worth.  Certainly, the Managed Readiness Plan is predicated on Reserve participation at the 10-20% rate - but there's not a limitless pool of money to pay for it.  Nor was it ever intended as a "Reserve Force full employment" package. 

A part-time soldier can maintain proficiency in a certain set of skills.  Adding additional items doesn't mean a more proficient solider; it means other skills fade.  Reservists (regardless of beret colour) should focus on maintaining their core competencies so when those skills are needed they are ready to provide them.

That means that if, right now, few Armd Reserve soldiers are being employed in trade on operations, then so be it.  When the requirement changes, we will draw on the available pool.  Or, if we need other abilities, maybe it's time to start reconsidering which Reserve units are tasked with which functions.  The L&R Scots have gone from Infantry to AD Arty and are now converting to tube Arty; the Elgins are now engineers; why can't other units transition as well?

 

[KevinB]

Additionally the RotoII 3VP recce unit also had the capability to utilize the 3 C7CT sniper rifles they where given for designated marksman roles...
I cannot see a Armoured Reserve unit that could provide snipers...

 

[John Nayduk]

Thanks to everyone for replying so far.  Interesting.  Now remember that I am not trying to pick a fight or knock anyone here.
Hedgehog, a blackhatter with operational experience in the RECCE squadron over there thinks using reserves can be done, with work. 
dapaterson says a few interesting things as well.  He says '"Having the course" is not the same as having experience along with the qualification.' which is true but without the course, people don't get a chance to get experience.  Also, I don't understand your logic here "The longer it takes to get a reservist "ready" to deploy (adding courses, etc), the more it costs, and the less they are worth."  How can you invest time and money and get something in the end that is worth less than what you started with?  Also, does that logic apply to the regular force guys as well?  Your statement "Nor was it ever intended as a "Reserve Force full employment" package." confuses me a little.  We know that the MRS is for deployments not full time class C.  You also mention "A part-time soldier can maintain proficiency in a certain set of skills.  Adding additional items doesn't mean a more proficient solider; it means other skills fade." so when does a person get "topped up" with skills and is it different depending on the component that we belong to? " Reservists (regardless of beret colour) should focus on maintaining their core competencies so when those skills are needed they are ready to provide them."  but the whole point of this thread is that there is about 2000 reservists with a skills that are not being employed to use them.  I'm sure that we can transition the reserve RECCE units but what if we need that skill set and it isn't there any more, kind of like the tanks.
KevinB says that the infantry were issued the C7CT rifle to be used as marksmen, not snipers.  It's just a weapon and if they could learn to use it, why can't a reservist?  We have been taught to use other weapon systems.
Again, I'm not trying to shit in anyone's cornflakes, just trying to understand all the arguments.

 

[George Wallace]

The old addage; "The Grass is always Greener on the other side of the Fence" doesn't work.  If the Regular Force can't get their people trained, their priority will naturally be to try and do so.  For Reservists to be trained, there will have to be vacancies on courses being run by the Reg Force.  Until the Reg Force can get their people trained, and then start increasing the size of their Instructor Pool, resources will be few and far between.

One option already brought up was the Reservists going to the Armour School for Year long (or extended longer) taskings and being employed as Drivers, thus getting the courses. 

I would hope that once the Corps can get its' Reg Force Units trained, then Reserve Instructors can be trained.  Biggest problem will be the availability of equipment.

If a miracle does happen, and equipment is purchased, there will soon be the requirement for dedicated Maintainers to keep it from being VOR'd.

Time will tell.

 

[dapaterson]

Thanks to everyone for replying so far. ,,, I don't understand your logic here "The longer it takes to get a reservist "ready" to deploy (adding courses, etc), the more it costs, and the less they are worth."  How can you invest time and money and get something in the end that is worth less than what you started with?

My point is this: we maintain a reserve force with certain skills.  If we don't use those skills, and spend a great deal of time and money adding skills (without experience) just so those reservists can go overseas, when we have adequate numbers of Regular Force personnel already trained, there is little value to the CF as a whole.  Why maintain a reserve force at all if we can take someone off the street, train them, and ship them overseas in the same time it takes to bring a reservists up to speed? It's a reduction in the value of the reserves as a whole if the time to go from armoury floor to deployment ready is too long.

Your statement "Nor was it ever intended as a "Reserve Force full employment" package." confuses me a little.  We know that the MRS is for deployments not full time class C.

There is a school of thought within the Army Reseve which views deployments as entitlements - that's what I was attempting to address with that comment.

...the whole point of this thread is that there is about 2000 reservists with a skills that are not being employed to use them.

And my point, in brief, is that as the theatre evolves there may be a demand for those skills.  For certain TFs it has been decided that we will not be deploying recce sqns , but rather surveillance sqns.  That means reduced Reserve augmentation.  Once we start sending over recce tps and recce sqns there will be a call for more reserve augmentation (indeed, a requirement for more reserve augmentation).  There are many senior members of the Armd branch who are well aware of the capabilities of the reserves and working hard to ensure their participation in future missions (for example, Colonel Cade, the Army G3).

Even then, let's do a little math looking at current levels of augmentation.  On a 3 year cycle with 4 TFs per year, if we send 10 Armd soldiers per TF that makes 120 soldiers, or more than 7% of the average active reserve population of the branch.  That's significant.

As I said before, right now the Armd branch has about the same proportion of its reserve soldiers currently on operations as the artillery and infantry.  They are not the "poor cousins" when it comes to opportunities for deployments.  That being said, the opportunities right now are twice as good as an engineer, and nearly six times as good for the intelligence branch.  That may well change over time, though I realize that everyone wants to go "now!" and not wait for "later".

 

[KevinB]

WRT the C7CT its issue is restricted to Snipers - be they used ina  formed sniper det or as sub unit DM's.
  I highly doubt that a reserve armour unti can fund a troop to take a Inf Recce course and then a Sniper course - if they could find individuals that had the time and skill to complete the courses.

I had a great idea to give the LAVIII crew jobs to Armour Reserves 

 

[ASLT TPR]

I have a question. When reserves are picked to go on these courses how do you pick the people to go. Because if the courses are hard to get what selection process do the reserves have on picking students. Because once your have that soldier qualified on the vehicle whats to say that they just won't get out shortly after. Not trying to bash the reserves here. But in the regforce we are on contract. Not to say that the odd person doesn't put in there early release but it can be refused. So when they put a regforce soldier on a course the army knows they are going to get a bit of training out of us.
If the reserves really want to get courses on vehicles if they take a 1 or 2 year tasking to the Armour School they are almost guaranteed that before they leave they will have more qualifications than when then came here. At no cost to the reserve unit. Right now the school is running a TLAV course and theres a few reservist on it.

 

[little jim]

How long would it take to get qualified on a vehicle such as the Coyote? Wouldn't it be possible to extend a reservists work-up training, to incorporate the course, giving them the qualification to use it overseas? Or would it be to long and costly to do it? Just curious.

Mike

The LAV Crew Commanders course is 37.5 training days.

Most reserve units are allocated 33 training days per man per FY.

Course might be too long without setting up reserve specific courses (and they are still playing mad hat catch for all the Regs) plus lack of resources (numbers of LAV III/Coyotes)

Just points to consider.

 

[George Wallace]

The LAV Crew Commanders course is 37.5 training days.

Most reserve units are allocated 33 training days per man per FY.

Course might be too long without setting up reserve specific courses (and they are still playing mad hat catch for all the Regs) plus lack of resources (numbers of LAV III/Coyotes)

Just points to consider.

One other point to ponder:  Amount of experience Driving or Gunning said Vehs after the Crse.  Without that experience, the crse is almost useless.  Without the Vehs and Equip to maintain that experience, the Reserves are at a disadvantage. 

As was mentioned earlier by dapaterson, as the situation changes (it is constantly changing), there may be a call to load the Brick with a Recce Troop capability that the Reserves can fill, using their current 'equipment' and skills.  Every ROTO is different, with the feedback from one being used to design the Brick for the next or one after that.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

LAV & Coyote courses would be nice. We used to do Bison & Cougar, and had hundreds of Reservist across the country, qualified and current in those vehicles. 33 days is the approx mandated training days. This does not include trade and ancillary courses, nor major excersises like summer concentration.

However, please quit bringing out the "YOU CAN'T GET ENOUGH TIME TO QUALIFY ON LAV AND COYOTE" or "Keep the skill sets current" or "Your taking away from Reg force guys who need it more" or "You can't maintain them."

There is not, or a very slight only, disagreement on this point.

So, let's try this again. We are qualified on GWagons, and the like, already. No course required for that. Convert to another, like the Nyala. Easy, do a conversion.

Our current job and qualification already involves convoy escort, TCP's, RAS tasks and the like. Sharpen those skills during the six month workup. This will free the Regs to man their LAVs and Coyotes to their hearts content. Let us do what we are already trained to do, with what we are trained to use. I don't know how much simpler that can be. There is merit to the Inf Recce attachment to the Surv guys, I won't dispute their competency, vice ours. However, there is still plenty that Armoured Recce Reserve can do within our our profile and doctrine.

 

[George Wallace]

However, please quit bringing out the "YOU CAN'T GET ENOUGH TIME TO QUALIFY ON LAV AND COYOTE" or "Keep the skill sets current" or "Your taking away from Reg force guys who need it more" or "You can't maintain them."

There is not, or a very slight only, disagreement on this point.

Well, an extreme example:  My wife has had her Drivers Licence for over twenty years.  She doesn't drive much and when I am in the car with her I fear for my life.  Don't even ask about the Maint side of the story, to include where to put the gas. 

So, let's try this again. We are qualified on GWagons, and the like, already. No course required for that. Convert to another, like the Nyala. Easy, do a conversion.

Our current job and qualification already involves convoy escort, TCP's, RAS tasks and the like. Sharpen those skills during the six month workup. This will free the Regs to man their LAVs and Coyotes to their hearts content. Let us do what we are already trained to do, with what we are trained to use. I don't know how much simpler that can be. There is merit to the Inf Recce attachment to the Surv guys, I won't dispute their competency, vice ours. However, there is still plenty that Armoured Recce Reserve can do within our our profile and doctrine.

I think dapaterson answered that very well in his post.

 

[Bobbyoreo]

"The LAV Crew Commanders course is 37.5 training days.

Most reserve units are allocated 33 training days per man per FY."


They do run summer courses...you know.
Yes there is a lack of money for training and yes it is hard to get guys on courses and yes they might quit.....but it's all the same on the reg side as well.  not picking a fight just adding my 2 cents!!!

 

[George Wallace]

They do run summer courses...you know.
Yes there is a lack of money for training and yes it is hard to get guys on courses and yes they might quit.....but it's all the same on the reg side as well.  not picking a fight just adding my 2 cents!!!

Yes, Reg Force guys quit too.  They, however, will be on those vehicles daily, even if it is just for maintenance, until their Release.  Reservists, walk away from the course, and unless employed at the School, may not see the vehicles again.  Big difference there. 

Like so much other training, if you don't stay on that equipment, you forget things.  By having the equipment to use, you also continue to learn what its' capabilities are, best means of operating it and maintaining it, keep your 'Drills' fresh, etc.  A course, in many cases, will teach you the basics and 'OJT' will teach you the rest/more.

....but we are starting to wander off topic.

 

[DG-41]

Why maintain a reserve force at all if we can take someone off the street, train them, and ship them overseas in the same time it takes to bring a reservists up to speed?

Because you can't.

Even if our theoretical Reservist has never even seen a Coyote in person, he still has a truckload of skills that Johnny fresh off the street does not. He knows how to live in the field. He knows how to take and receive orders. He knows how to move tactically, stand guard, call for indirect fire, use proper voice procedure on the radio, participate in a running replen, man an OP, carry out a held up drill, take a trace, report a contact, cam a vehicle, read a map, etc etc etc etc etc.

And while a lot of these skills can and will be taught to Johnny off the street, he won't have the mastery of them that a Reservist does - and no, a Reservist won't have the mastery of them that a salty Reg Force soldier with TI does, but he is farther along the path than Johnny is.

When I came to the Reserves after being in the Regs, I ate a lot of crow, because the gap in skill level between Regs and Reserves was nowhere near as wide as I had supposed.

Crew commanding is crew commanding. It takes a little time to adapt to each vehicle's particular quirks, but that hurdle is much smaller than the initial hurdle of learning to crew command at all. As I pointed out earlier, we put two troops of Reservists onto a vehicle that most of them had never seen before, (Bison) and they had adapted to it in a little over a week.

Coyote is a little more complicated because you have turret systems, 25mm gunnery, and the surv system to learn. But we used to deal with turrets and gunnery all the time in the Cougar days, and we've dealt with electronic surv systems (of an admittedly lesser complexity) before just fine. Once you know the basics, the rest is just practice.

I think you'd find a Reservist could be brought up to speed on Coyote in suprisingly little time - and now that we are getting C&R GWagons (which will use the CI intercom system and a roof mounted weapon system) there are two more skills that can be taught and practiced at the unit.

The issue here is not of capability - Reserves can do the job. The issue here is the commitment to give the Reserves the training and equipment (which need not be the full-bore high speed kit, just something that provides reasonable approximation) to get the initial skills and then practice them.

If *I* were CDS ( : ) I'd see that the planned course list at all the schools (not just Armour, but all the trades) was published to all Reserve units, and then invite the Reserves to nominate candidates for "standby" positions. If the course cannot be filled by Regulars (for whatever reason) run through the standby list until all the slots are filled.

Same goes for instructors - once you have Reservists qualified on those systems, they go into a pool of potential instructors, and are canvassed on a course-by-course basis to see if any from the pool are willing to go on a list of standby instructors.

There's no reason why every single course at the schools shouldn't be 100% manned at all times, backfilled with Reservists whenever possible. You'll have no problem finding volunteers - hell, I'd happily redo Phase 3 and Phase 4 if I could do it on Coyote. Or make me a course officer, let me sit in on the training I don't have, and run me through the Coyote-specific POs and EOs. There are ways to make this happen, if there is the motivation from higher to see it done.

DG

 

[little jim]

Bobbyoero

Thanks for that - try using the full quote next time.

You run summer courses - fine vehicles might be availible, instructors might be availible.  I know I did LAV CC in 2004, haven't actually used one since that summer - what is the associated increase in reserve training calendar to maint proficiency with the vehicle.  What is the increase to reserve budgets for the ammo costs.  What is the increase to vehicle demands during the regular training cycle if vehicles are farmed out to reserve formations for proficiency/refresher training.  Do you centralize this?  What about units where there is no locate Coyote/LAV forces?  What is the maint bill.

There is more to this than simply running courses for the reserve units.

Just pissed as I feel you really presented a portion of my post out of context.

 

[George Wallace]

Crew commanding is crew commanding. It takes a little time to adapt to each vehicle's particular quirks, but that hurdle is much smaller than the initial hurdle of learning to crew command at all. As I pointed out earlier, we put two troops of Reservists onto a vehicle that most of them had never seen before, (Bison) and they had adapted to it in a little over a week.

Coyote is a little more complicated because you have turret systems, 25mm gunnery, and the surv system to learn. But we used to deal with turrets and gunnery all the time in the Cougar days, and we've dealt with electronic surv systems (of an admittedly lesser complexity) before just fine. Once you know the basics, the rest is just practice.

There's no reason why every single course at the schools shouldn't be 100% manned at all times, backfilled with Reservists whenever possible. You'll have no problem finding volunteers - hell, I'd happily redo Phase 3 and Phase 4 if I could do it on Coyote. Or make me a course officer, let me sit in on the training I don't have, and run me through the Coyote-specific POs and EOs. There are ways to make this happen, if there is the motivation from higher to see it done.

DG

Just a point.  You as an officer, would not get the qualification by just being the Crse Offr.  You would have the necessity of having to do the Gunnery Crse and the CC Crse, to sit in the Turret of the Coyote.

Not all Reservists have had the luxury of working on Cougars.  Many have never been in a veh with a turret.  An awful steep learning curve, when you first get into a turret.  (I must clarify that to be a "Turret", not a "Cupola".)  There are always exceptions to the rule.  You have had the benefit of some good training, others have not.  Do we judge all Reservists now by the standards that some have achieved or by the lowest common denominator?  As the situation changes in Afhanistan, who will we send?  As someone stated in another post, "Deployments are not an 'Entitlement' for the Reserves."  That, however, doesn't solve the Training Problems we are facing; but that is off topic.  

 

[Bobbyoreo]

"Bobbyoero

Thanks for that - try using the full quote next time.

You run summer courses - fine vehicles might be availible, instructors might be availible.  I know I did LAV CC in 2004, haven't actually used one since that summer - what is the associated increase in reserve training calendar to maint proficiency with the vehicle.  What is the increase to reserve budgets for the ammo costs.  What is the increase to vehicle demands during the regular training cycle if vehicles are farmed out to reserve formations for proficiency/refresher training.  Do you centralize this?  What about units where there is no locate Coyote/LAV forces?  What is the maint bill.

There is more to this than simply running courses for the reserve units.

Just pissed as I feel you really presented a portion of my post out of context."


There....

Yes your right some people do not ever touch those vehicles again. Happens. I know alot of reserves that continue to use the Coyote/Lav 3 bison and many other things that are not always kept with in arms reach of a reserve unit. I know guys who really know how to use these items as well. I've work with reg force guys who have forgot how to use them and had to get reserves to show them. I've also work with alot of reserves who dont remember anything week to week...so i can see both sides of it.

I also know about the Maint bill, but these are things that can be worked out. Ie do what the USAR do Keep  one or two at the unit and the rest at the units that already use them and then they can be used on the weekends. IF THE REGS are not using them then. This can all be worked out.

Never ment to present anything you said out of context...that was the only point I was making. Not tryign to pick a fight just wanted to point out that there is more then 33 days a year. As when I was in the reserves I worked every weekend from Sept to Dec and then Jan to May and here and there in the Summer as I already had a fulltime job. I think that 33 days comes from awhile back...I am pretty sure things have changed. Again...Not picking a fight...jsut pointing out is all....

 

[George Wallace]

I also know about the Maint bill, but these are things that can be worked out. Ie do what the USAR do Keep  one or two at the unit and the rest at the units that already use them and then they can be used on the weekends. IF THE REGS are not using them then. This can all be worked out.

Therein lies a problem.  THE REGS don't have enough for themselves.  Reg Force Recce are sharing one and a half Sqn's worth of equip between three Sqn's.  "The Grass is not greener" on their side of the fence.

 

[DG-41]

You as an officer, would not get the qualification by just being the Crse Offr.  You would have the necessity of having to do the Gunnery Crse and the CC Crse, to sit in the Turret of the Coyote.

So? Time spent in training is seldom wasted. Even if a qualification was never granted, the experience gained is still a net positive. And maybe the Qualification Gods can be convinced to consider a situation like this to be a "conversion course" and grant the qualification anyway.

The aim of the exercise is to get people trained. If it takes thinking out of the box, then so be it - the important part is getting people trained and experienced as much as possible.

Not all Reservists have had the luxury of working on Cougars.

You're right, and the number of Reservists with turret time is dropping.

But here's the main point - if we could train Reservists on the Cougar turret, then we can train Reservists on the Coyote turret. Having a turret is not an automatic roadblock to getting a Reservist trained. Hell, the Yanks train their National Guardsmen to fight on Abrams.

And nowadays, there are ways to get certain aspects of training via home study. Have you seen http://www.steelbeasts.com lately? Their "Professional Edition" is due out any day now, and includes crewable vehicles for M1, Leo1, Leo2, Bradley, ***LAV-25***, and M113. That program, or something like it, could be provided to Reservists to help get famil time on the Coyote turret - and something similar could be done up for the surv system as well.

Does that replace actual turret time? Hell no - but it can help teach a bunch of skills, or keep trained skills current, with very little investment.

There's an analogue from my racing experience. Seat time in the race car was unbelievably precious, but the operating costs per minute to run the actual race car were astronomical (and worse yet, came out of my own pocket) so to try and make up for it, I built a race car simulator based around a Playstation2 and a wheel/pedal package. It *totally* worked. While driving the simulator lacked a lot of input that existed on the real race car (hard to simulate feeling a 1.7G turn in a video game) the simulator was close enough to the real thing in enough areas to keep the racing skills sharp. Plus it let me try things out that I *never* would have tried in real life (can I take this turn without lifting?)  to see if they worked out or not.

There are ways to make this stuff work. Canadian soldiers are renowned for their inginuity and creativeness. All it takes is support from higher.

DG

 

[dapaterson]

A point of clarification:  the training calendar is posted within MITE; the G3 indiv Trg folks have access to all course listings.  If they are aware of openings and do not communicate them to units with aval pers (and funds) that is a failing that should be remedied.

I agree that there are innovative training solutions - but sometimes we're addressing the wrong problems.  Adding more skills to maintain in a fixed period of time usually leads to others being bumped off and not maintained.  We need to always be ready to drop things no longer required; but we also have to avoid jumping at things that appear new and sexy at the expense of core competencies.

I acknowledge that there are some pers who do hold the skills and experience necessary to augment surveillance squadrons on deployments.  But those are exceptions, not the norm.  Plans cannot be built based on "Hopefully, we'll find someone with X,Y and Z" - they have to be based on the known, predictable structure.  They also require enough flexibility to accommodate the reserve Armd Sgt who can crew command a Coyote, speak Pashtun and is available for TF 1-09 (for example) and not offer him a position as GD section commander.