arm patch for reservist.

[orange.paint]

Cool seems most of the qestions have been answered except for if any other area are using them or is it just directed by LFCA?

anyone got a list avec pics of ALL the badges?This is interesting to me,like a fairy tail when the far distant land of matawa

becomes the Reserve utopian world. 

 

[dapaterson]

It is only LFCA that does this.  And I suspect LFCA has chosen to forget QR&O 17.10:

(1) Subject to paragraph (2), no officer or non-commissioned member of the Canadian Forces shall wear with a uniform any visible article that is not authorized as part of an order of dress.
(2)The Chief of the Defence Staff may authorize specific accessories for optional wear.


Additional accoutrements/ badges / bangles / buttons which are permitted are detailed in CFP 265 (Canadian Forces Dress Instructions).  LFCA's arm patches do not appear therein.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

It is only LFCA that does this.   And I suspect LFCA has chosen to forget QR&O 17.10:

(1) Subject to paragraph (2), no officer or non-commissioned member of the Canadian Forces shall wear with a uniform any visible article that is not authorized as part of an order of dress.
(2)The Chief of the Defence Staff may authorize specific accessories for optional wear.


Additional accoutrements/ badges / bangles / buttons which are permitted are detailed in CFP 265 (Canadian Forces Dress Instructions).  LFCA's arm patches do not appear therein.

...or maybe they haven't, and your just not in that all important loop. I'm sure if you put a call into the Area Chief, he'd be more than happy to clarify the Commander's position to you.

 

[Sig_Des]

anyone got a list avec pics of ALL the badges?This is interesting to me,like a fairy tail when the far distant land of matawa

I can't remember seeing a list anywhere, but I think I've got 2 of my patches kicking around somewhere.

I have the 3 LBG HQ & Sigs one, and the 3 ARR, as I was attached to them. We had guys in from our Regiment attached to just about every formation. I'll see if I can get some together and get some pics.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

It is only LFCA that does this.   And I suspect LFCA has chosen to forget QR&O 17.10:

(1) Subject to paragraph (2), no officer or non-commissioned member of the Canadian Forces shall wear with a uniform any visible article that is not authorized as part of an order of dress.
(2)The Chief of the Defence Staff may authorize specific accessories for optional wear.


Additional accoutrements/ badges / bangles / buttons which are permitted are detailed in CFP 265 (Canadian Forces Dress Instructions).  LFCA's arm patches do not appear therein.

And it was the CDS who made us wear that idiotic Year of the Veteran pin.

The Calgary Highlanders authorized a range of regimental awards that are worn with CFs - but only at regimental functions.  They are not listed in CFP 265, but hey - the Queen said it was ok. http://www.calgaryhighlanders.com/clan.htm

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Michael,

I'm suprised that Mr Milne, who gained the Queen's approval for the awards, is not on the list of recipients. ??? Or did I miss something?

 

[dapaterson]

[quote author=recceguy]
I'm sure if you put a call into the Area Chief, he'd be more than happy to clarify the Commander's position to you.
[/quote]

The Area Chief is an advisor to the Area Commander - he (or she) cannot assert authority to add items to an order of dress.  And while Area Commanders have positions on many subjects, they also lack the authority to add items to uniforms.


And Michael:  Yes, the CDS did order a change to dress, as he is permitted to do.  Where's the issue?  (Chain of command and legal orders issue, that is.  I'd rather not touch the aesthetics issue  )

As for "The Clan of the Gallant Canadians", HRH may well have authorised the issue of the medal, but there has never been any authority given to wear them with Canadian uniforms.  I understand that the Calgary Highlanders restrict their wearing to regimental functions, but from a narrow perspective, there is no authority to wear such decorations with the uniform, just as there is no authority for Canadians of the first Gulf war to wear medals issued by the government of Kuwait (an issue that was in the press a few weeks ago)

 

[Michael Dorosh]

The Area Chief is an advisor to the Area Commander - he (or she) cannot assert authority to add items to an order of dress.  And while Area Commanders have positions on many subjects, they also lack the authority to add items to uniforms.


And Michael:  Yes, the CDS did order a change to dress, as he is permitted to do.  Where's the issue?  (Chain of command and legal orders issue, that is.  I'd rather not touch the aesthetics issue  )

As for "The Clan of the Gallant Canadians", HRH may well have authorised the issue of the medal, but there has never been any authority given to wear them with Canadian uniforms.  I understand that the Calgary Highlanders restrict their wearing to regimental functions, but from a narrow perspective, there is no authority to wear such decorations with the uniform, just as there is no authority for Canadians of the first Gulf war to wear medals issued by the government of Kuwait (an issue that was in the press a few weeks ago)

Exactly my point - units and formations will sometimes issue insignia that is beyond their authority to do so.  But it happens. I see no harm in the practice, but even if I did - it ain't gonna change.

Incidentally, those weirdos that study Uniforms and insignia for "fun" can point to a long history of unauthorized insignia in the Canadian Army, always worn with pride, and quite illegally, from the British-made trades badges of the Second World War which were officially verboten but widely worn, proclaiming to the world that the wearer was a Despatch Rider or some equally exciting thing, back to stuff like Prize Platoon insignia which was authorized by the 3rd Division in the First World War (not sure if there was a larger authority for that one or not, I'd have to reread KHAKI).

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Michael,

I'm suprised that Mr Milne, who gained the Queen's approval for the awards, is not on the list of recipients. ??? Or did I miss something?

Hitler authorized the Grand Cross of the Iron Cross, but only Hermann Goering ever wore one.

Seriously, good point.  The list is incomplete - I'd be surprised if he didn't get one also.  Thanks for pointing it out, I'll try and find out for sure what his status was.

 

[Unknown C/S]

Recceguy

I am surprised at your response. Did I somehow hit a raw nerve?

I was not telling anybody how to "suck eggs" and I have witnessed the Mattawa Plain hordes.

If you agree that afixing a patch to your uniform that will designate the soldier as a "visitor"  to the full time population of the base sits well with the troops that's fine.

Your point may be valid if: None of the soldiers were allowed on the base proper, any and all Reg Force pers were not permitted to take part or enter the exercise area.

My question was how did the troops feel? (Obviously you endorse it)

Secondly, it must have have cost a bit to have patches made up, only to be discarded after the ex? Could money not have been better spent on training (blank rds, gas training, grenade, M72 etc, etc)

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The Area Chief is an advisor to the Area Commander - he (or she) cannot assert authority to add items to an order of dress.  And while Area Commanders have positions on many subjects, they also lack the authority to add items to uniforms.

Thanks for the lesson : You missed my point. On of the things the Area Chief is responsible for is dress. If the Commander has changed it, without authority and contrary to the Dress Regs as you imply, I'm sure the Chief had discussions about it. As such he is probably more in the know about this particular case than you are. However, feel free to contact the Commander directly instead and question his motives personaly. Let us know how you make out.

Recceguy

I am surprised at your response. Did I somehow hit a raw nerve?

I was not telling anybody how to "suck eggs" and I have witnessed the Mattawa Plain hordes.

If you agree that afixing a patch to your uniform that will designate the soldier as a "visitor"  to the full time population of the base sits well with the troops that's fine.

Your point may be valid if: None of the soldiers were allowed on the base proper, any and all Reg Force pers were not permitted to take part or enter the exercise area.

My question was how did the troops feel? (Obviously you endorse it)

Secondly, it must have have cost a bit to have patches made up, only to be discarded after the ex? Could money not have been better spent on training (blank rds, gas training, grenade, M72 etc, etc)

Andy,

You missed my smilies methinks. No offence taken with what you had to say and no frazzled nerves, at least not from this. The patches are held on with velcro, they come off easier than the cam paint and stink, if your one of the lucky ones to make it up top. Most are relegated to the Plains for the duration. Not saying they don't still find a way to get up to Timmies or CANEX. Most I've spoken to, don't seem to mind it. Honestly, I've never heard anyone bitch about it. Maybe the Unit they were delegated to, but not the concept. I'm sure every initiative has it's detractors though. Personally, I don't care one way or the other, simply providing the explanations. I prefer to be a 'grey man' when attending these sort of things.

I don't know what LFCA paid for them, and I'm not sure that cost would have provided much more training aids and value. There's always  somebody from Denison lurking here, maybe they can expand for us.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Some people seem to forget that money is allocated into budgets for specific purposes; is it common to spend ammunition money on badges?  I'm guessing no?

As a reservist, I'd say why be ashamed of being a reservist? Badges are to identify but also provide a source of espirit de corps.  If given a badge like that, I'd wear it with pride. Shame on me if I didn't.

If anyone is embarrassed to be a reservist, that's their tough luck.

 

[orange.paint]

This isn't about being reservist or not it's just questions of

is this legal qr&o?

what the heck it is?

information, pics ,etc?

man I think I picked a good topic

are you ready?are you ready?lets get it on! (UFC for those hippies who don't watch it)

 

[Michael Dorosh]

This isn't about being reservist or not it's just questions of

is this legal qr&o?

what the heck it is?

information, pics ,etc?

man I think I picked a good topic

are you ready?are you ready?lets get it on! (UFC for those hippies who don't watch it)

Those have all been answered already, including at least one photo.  Try my forum at http://www.network54.com/Forum/28173/ and ask Bill Alexander if he has photos available of the rest.

 

[orange.paint]

cheers.

 

[GO!!!]

I like this idea - an identifying brassard for all reservists...

Perhaps red - no, scarlet, yes a scarlet letter - oh, wait a second...

 

[turretmonster]

"...scarlet, yes a scarlet letter"

So they can be punished for adultery?

TM

 

[Unknown C/S]

Some people seem to forget that money is allocated into budgets for specific purposes; is it common to spend ammunition money on badges?  I'm guessing no?

As a reservist, I'd say why be ashamed of being a reservist? Badges are to identify but also provide a source of espirit de corps.  If given a badge like that, I'd wear it with pride. Shame on me if I didn't.

If anyone is embarrassed to be a reservist, that's their tough luck.

My point was not about being ashamed or embarassed to wear an identifier. The fact that there is already a small amount of animosity between a few reg/res soldiers, the wearing of a patch for a militia exercise might have caused some friction for certain soldiers.

(If nothing else a patch would have made it harder to sneek into timmies undetected  ;D)

 

[Michael Dorosh]

My point was not about being ashamed or embarassed to wear an identifier. The fact that there is already a small amount of animosity between a few reg/res soldiers, the wearing of a patch for a militia exercise might have caused some friction for certain soldiers.

(If nothing else a patch would have made it harder to sneek into timmies undetected  ;D)

Your last point is apt.

Friction between the regulars and the reserves would be the fault of the individuals concerned; I don't think it's a valid reason not to try and foster unit cohesion among disparate elements thrown together by using a known quanitity (ie unit insignia).  For all the dumb ideas the Army has had over history, I don't think this was one of them. But, I'm one of those weirdos who thinks studying uniforms and insignia is "fun" so I am probably biased.

 

[Unknown C/S]

Your last point is apt.

Friction between the regulars and the reserves would be the fault of the individuals concerned; I don't think it's a valid reason not to try and foster unit cohesion among disparate elements thrown together by using a known quanitity (ie unit insignia).  For all the dumb ideas the Army has had over history, I don't think this was one of them. But, I'm one of those weirdos who thinks studying uniforms and insignia is "fun" so I am probably biased.

Generally I am against the liberal use of fluff badges & pins, it only seems to drag us (CDN Army) toward an Americanization of our troops.
In this case, a reorg precipitated the need for this. Take the ARR for example, bringing regt's together to work as a single entity (with different cap badges) could cause some problems (SOP's etc) at least the identifying badge is a step in the right direction to bring them closer to "reading off the same page"

As far as friction is concerned, it is generally borne from ignorance from the ocaisional soldier on both sides.