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AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

SeaKingTacco said:
ER,

Having served on Canadian Tankers a few times in my career, there is no reason you could not convert a civian tanker, with a couple of caveats:

- for better or worse, we have tended to treat our AORs as fighting units. You won't get that capability in a convert, for very good engineering and damage control reasons. A convert would have to be kept very strictly out of harms way. Seen, but, ultimately, taking that risk would be a political choice.

- your helicopter facilities are likely to be rudimentary, at best. Indeed, it appear that HMAS Sirius has a deck but no hanger.

 
20061027ran8098687_123.jpg


  I can see that being a deal breaker.

-you probably will lose the capability to transfer ammo at sea, as creating a magazine space would be pricey. It depends how important you think that is.

  Another deal breaker in my, uninformed, opinion.

-your ability to transfer food and stores at sea might be limited, although you may be able to Gerry rig something using sea cans on deck. It would not be very efficient, however.

- the role 2/3 medical facility might be hard.

As you said- it all depends on how much value you put all of those capabilities.


Thanks for that; they were all factors I didn't understand.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
There is discussion in the media about possibly converting an existing commercial cargo ship to an AOR. (The discussion also posits that the AOR project (Berlin class, is that right?) is in trouble.)

My question is, political posturing aside: why not?

I couldn't find much discussion that I could understand, except this. A bit of further reading (caution Wikipedia as a source) suggests that "HMAS Sirius (O 266) (formerly MT Delos) is a commercial tanker purchased by the Royal Australian Navy and converted into a fleet replenishment vessel to replace HMAS Westralia. Launched in South Korea on 2004, and converted in Western Australia, Sirius was commissioned in 2006; three years before a purpose-built vessel would have, and at half the cost. The tanker is expected to remain in service until the 2020s."

1920px-HMAS_Sirius_steams_in_the_Coral_Sea_after_completing_a_replenishment_in_July_2013.jpg


Can the Navy engineers (and associated experts) tell this simple soldier: why not?

TL;DR - It can be done, it's just a dumb idea that won't meet operational needs and will cost a lot.

Engineering wise, it's definitely doable.  The practical reasons why not are more related to the time it would take to do the conversion, and then all the practical issues around getting a crew trained to use it and actually supply the fuel.

You would need to do some work to strengthen/reinforce the upper deck for the posts (the large towers that with the cables and fuel hoses).  Depending on the configuration of the ship you were converting, you may also need to design and fit systems to transfer the fuel at the required flowrates, plus maintain fuel quality and other things that a bulk oil carrier doesn't necessarily do. Would probably also need to look at all the fire suppression systems and update those as required for the new role. It's all fairly basic structural, mechanical and electrical stuff, but does take time to design, plan and build.  12-18 months would be pretty aggressive to do that portion.

If it's operated by the RCN or someone else, there is also the crew training required to just get the ship out to sea, plus actually conducting RASs.  It may take some time to find the right people if they are providing the crew, and the navy is pretty short on most critical sea going positions, so if it was RCN crewed, it would make that worse, plus directly impact the new AOPs and eventually the JSS crewing.  That would probably also take 1-2 years to get them in place and trained to operate the ship safely.

So if they start going full throttle now, looking at sometime in 2017-2018 when it's leaving Davie.  Then there would be probably another six months of getting practice and experience until it's really effective.  And it would be a lot more limited then what we would have in the AORs that we had, or what JSS will provide.  It'll be a one off ship, so probably a lot more expensive to operate and maintain.

While this is all going on, us engineering weenies are going full throttle trying to maintain the current fleet while supporting three major ship builds at the same time as government cuts is driving a large workforce reduction, and a lot less resources are available for basic maintenance and repairs, so the fleet is in less then 100% state.  So any work on this would probably directly impact the current and future ships as you would need to redirect resources.

All of that to try and provide a stop gap, one off one of a kind ship that no one else will want after the fact, that will be intermittently available to provide limited operational support, and probably be restricted from specific areas due to the threats.

It's less of a matter of can we do it, and more of a matter of should we do it.  This would be an okay idea to have done ten years ago to replace one of our AORs, as we could have ran it for a few cycles to get our moneys worth then scrapped it.  Ships are a big capitol investment, so you need to operate them for a long time to get the money's worth.

There are also other options, including straight up leasing commercial oilers to operate in specific areas as mobile gas stations at sea.  Probably cost a bit more, but would be available immediately, and then there is zero support required on our end, and would also be available to both coasts, rather then one lone COTs bastardized AOR.  Combined with fueling off our allies, that's a much better option for all kinds of practical reasons.  When the AORs went into their long refits, you would make do without for several years, so we already have plenty of recent experience in getting things done regardless.
 
FWIW, it doesn't look as if HMAS Sirius is anything other than a tanker, aside from the addition for refueling at sea, it looks like a pretty stock cargo tanker, if anything her superstructure is a bit smaller than most. I'm doubtful she has any room for additional stores, ammunition, etc. There is a small open cargo deck mid-ship, but she doesn't seem to have any sort of crane to handle the containers.

It's a nice looking helipad she's got though.

Really, if you just wanted to convert a civilian ship into a non-deployable navy ship, so you've got "a" tanker rather than "no" tanker, it's far cheaper and easier to just lease an existing civilian ship, with the state of the oil industry, you can have one pretty much ready to go, crew and all, for a very reasonable rate. You'd still need modifications, but again, go with the private industry leasing option, those can be accomplished in a much more reasonable time frame.
 
Some of the considerations regarding this idea are also that Davie would convert and then lease/crew the ship (partially I'm assuming).  If the ship is leased then that free's up a lot of the RCN engineering/pers resources.

If the RCN decides to purchase how is that any different than the Preserver and Protector themselves?  The engineering/costs required to keep them going was very intensive due to their age and uniqueness.  A single COTS AOR might actually be cheaper to run than the JSS as most likely all the main engineering parts could be bought COTS.  Just keep sending it back to Davie to fix it....

In the long run this could turn into a positive.  Keeping some expertise in the fleet on how to run an AOR (avoiding some skill fade), trail out new ways of doing things in preperation for the JSS etc....  If the RCN kept the COTS AOR after the JSS are online then the fleet would have the 3 AORS that the navy needs, one for domestic/low risk OPS and two that act as the combat ships we consider them to be.  No breath holding though...
 
One of the things that never ceases to amaze me in these pages is how many naysayers always take the position: Can't be done, we need five gazillion years to train for the task and nobody has done it before.

NP: We need one to two years to train the crew just to safely put to sea and to conduct RAS? Are you serious !!! You engineering type have never seen a diesel engine single shaft ship? Our chief engineers, at sea for 20 years at least and the EOOW's, at sea for about 15 years, can't crawl through a civilian designed single engine diesel ship, with an ordinary hydraulic steering gear and two diesel generators for electrical and figure out how to make it work in two weeks? We have suddenly completely forgotten how to do the RAS we have been doing for more than 45 years just because we stopped for a year or two?
/RANT OFF

This steam let out (from the old AOR :) ), lets recap the situation as it relates to the proposal by Davie. Yes, that's right: It is Davie that proposed the deal to the government - not the other way around: Davie proposed to convert a tanker, crew it and then lease it for an annual price for support of the Navy. I don't know where Navy_Pete is getting is info on what is required to be done and the timeline (and from his profile, do not believe he has the experience to make those statements, unless, undisclosed, he has worked extensively with the shipbuilding industry before joining), but I am willing to bet that from get go to ship available, Davie can do it in one year.

What would Davie deliver? Most likely something very close to HMAS SIRIUS. What does it mean? It means a tanker (HMAS SIRIUS is an AO - Auxiliary tanker, not an AOR, even though, she has, under the housing that was added between the bridge and the Fuelling posts about 20 standard containers and reefers for food and light materials that can be transferred by jackstay [at a max of 250 Kg per shot] or by helicopter [hence, the helipad]. She carries no ammunition).

Does it meet all the naval requirements of the Navy for deployable AOR? No, but so what. Is there a problem in going in harms way? Yes, but the last time we did this with an AOR was Gulf War 1. Many other nations deploy much less armed support vessels than our old AOR but keep them at a safe distance. It is still a lot better than no support at all.

Moreover, people (as I said above) get all excited when we don't train to death before we do anything. Well, right now, we cannot TRAIN to do heavy jackstays and fuel transfers at sea because we don't have our own AOR's. It is a manoeuvre that we must train for before we go out  into an operational theatre and carry it out with another nation's AOR/T-AKE/T-AOE. Having such a vessel would provide that training and the capacity to bring some support with us where we may.

I get a feeling from the minister's statement, however, that the government is NOT looking to go that route. Obviously, they don't want to look like they are rejecting Davie's proposal right off the bat in an election year, so they  are engaging in preliminary discussions (that will last until after the election IMHO). The reference by the minister to giving us a capability in command and control and in medical support shows that he is either ignorant of the capability Davie is offering [which is NOT a full JSS or even AOR] or is a setup for suddenly finding a reason to reject the proposal after the election is over.

I can see one danger, so to speak, for the Navy in Davie's proposal: If it was accepted and worked (i.e. civilian crew on a support ship) It might open the door to combat support to be transferred to the civilian side of the outfit - the CFAV's. After all many nations, including the two of the largest largest sea powers on which we model ourselves (USA and UK) have civilians running their combat support.     

 
What about something like Royal Fleet Auxiliary vessel Argus (A 135), with some RAS gear added?  Perhaps Davie could effect a change similar to the MT Contender Bezant to RFA Argus, albeit in less than four years?

MT Contender Bezant
Contender__Bezant-01.jpg


becomes...

RFA Argus
300px-RFA_Argus_off_the_coast_of_Devonport.jpg
 
I'm still convinced that we:
- purchase the two "unwanted" Mistrals, one for each coast.
- add a single starboard side RAS point and heavy jackstay
- load them up with training subbies and baby engineering types
- make them the Flag ship, and permanently embark the flag and staff
- embark the entire squadron on each coast (423/443)
- sail a lot of Mondays, returning Fri
- train the crap out of everyone, including doing RAS's
- take along whatever schools, Warfare Centers, etc that want to come learn
- if the army wants, they can come play to (using there own rubber boats for now)... same for Griffins and Chinooks (not necessarily embarking, but flying on)
- have a role 2/3 hospital we could embark if we wanted to do disaster stuff; fill 'er up with stuff and people and off you go

When we actually get the Berlins, we could either keep them for developing littoral maneuver, or pass them on.

... and to free up engineering capacity and crew, get rid of Athabaskan; yesterday...

But alas, can't see it happening.
 
:goodpost:

Wholeheartedly agree. And for what its worth, they can always get whatever minor modifications this would require done at Davie.
 
OGBD, the timelines are based around what was proposed by Davie a few years ago, and based on the opinion of people that do have decades of experience in ship building and repair sector. I also have my own very relevant and recent experience in ship repair, and while not decades worth, a few years is enough to call BS.  A year to get this done is, in my opion, BS. 

They would need time to buy a ship, then do a modification design specific to that ship, have it reviewed (by either us or a classification society), then build it.  Once you have a design, there is lead time required for ordering parts, and that can be months for large capacity pumps, valves and other items.  They would also need to do a number of surveys and repairs to existing equipment, and a lot of that would be docking dependent for the tanks, hull valves, etc.  That takes a lot of time and expertise to do all of that safely and properly, otherwise it will be half assed at best and will be down more then operational.  Installing RAS posts on a ship not designed to provide fuel at sea is not a minor modification.

The crew estimate also included time to FIND the crew.  Not many civilians do RASs, and you wouldn't hire them until you had a contract.  So unless they have a huge pool of available candidates they`ve already got on retainer, they will need at least a few months to hire them.  You can do that concurrently, but will still need to make sure whoever it is operating the specific RAS gear gets training on that equipment and how it`s setup.  The engineering piece for the crew is easy; it's the deck hands and the drivers that will be hard.  The Davie proposal had them leasing it to us with crews included.  We don't have the bodies to spare as indicated by every single manning shortage message that comes out whenever a ship goes out the harbour.  Again, all of this takes a lot of time to do properly.

It's also pretty expensive.  We could get the same capability now by putting contracts out for having an oiler on station in an OpArea when we call, which is basically all we`d be getting from Davie.

This proposal only makes sense politically; it does nothing for the RCN other then cause a lot of churn at the HQ.  This is a cheap political ploy where they commit to nothing, look like they are supporting the Navy, and try for votes in QC. 
 
Baz said:
I'm still convinced that we:
- purchase the two "unwanted" Mistrals, one for each coast.
- add a single starboard side RAS point and heavy jackstay
- load them up with training subbies and baby engineering types
- make them the Flag ship, and permanently embark the flag and staff
- embark the entire squadron on each coast (423/443)
- sail a lot of Mondays, returning Fri
- train the crap out of everyone, including doing RAS's
- take along whatever schools, Warfare Centers, etc that want to come learn
- if the army wants, they can come play to (using there own rubber boats for now)... same for Griffins and Chinooks (not necessarily embarking, but flying on)
- have a role 2/3 hospital we could embark if we wanted to do disaster stuff; fill 'er up with stuff and people and off you go

When we actually get the Berlins, we could either keep them for developing littoral maneuver, or pass them on.

... and to free up engineering capacity and crew, get rid of Athabaskan; yesterday...

But alas, can't see it happening.

I will add to this idea, also buy one Berlin Class to be built overseas by the shipyard that has built others. Hell by the time ours are ready to sail, this one will need a refit. Perfect world 3 Berlins, 2 Mistral. The ships can rotate through refits and hot layups to help with manning and a modern fleet might make recruiting a bit easier as well.
 
What about french AOR Meuse, IIRC this ship just decommissioned from french navy, maybe if we buy the russian Mistrals france will throw in Meuse for free.
 
There is a bit of a precedent for the civilian ship AOR in the RCN.  HMCS Provider was essentially a slightly redesigned civi ship to trail the new RAS concept which eventually became the NATO standard.  And she was built by Davie as well.  Who says history isn't cyclical...
 
A tweet:

Timothy Choi ‏@TimmyC62 10m10 minutes ago

Just learned during #NAC2015: #Chile Navy supply ship to be stationed from #Esquimalt for interim-interim #AOR starting next few weeks
https://twitter.com/TimmyC62/status/614518079146438656

Mark
Ottawa
 
Chilean navy's--pretty impressive--website:
http://www.armada.cl/

One of two AORs:

foto_0000000920140415162530.jpg


http://www.armada.cl/armada/unidades-navales/superficie/petroleros/ao-52-a-almirante-montta/2014-04-15/162530.html

Mark
Ottawa
 
There is an internet rumour that this is what Davie is proposing:

11406413_959470604111670_3406257509584327961_o.jpg


11143155_959470717444992_193421199405079555_o.jpg

Source:https://www.facebook.com/GOCANADANAVY/photos_stream

 
I'm not any close to a structural engineer, but that seems like a massive amount of modifications that need to be completed to a civilian container ship and is going to cost huge sums of money.

Sure looks pretty though.
 
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