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AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

OGBD:

I stand corrected on all points.

The poor point I was alluding to was that the Danes seem to be demonstrating a degree of flexibility in thinking (not just in the capabilities of their vessels but in the manner in which they approach problems) that I find admirable and would suggest that we consider emulating.
 
Hmm I wonder if you could build them with a RO/RO ramp that can also attach to a multi-section pontoon that can be used to load vehicles onto landing craft?

The advantages is the pontoon sections stay dockside until needed and lifted aboard and the RO/RO ramp works at most port facilities with minimal effort.

The disadvantages of such a system is that you will need a safe harbour to deploy and use the pontoons and the pontoons sections will need a significant amount of deckspace and lifting equipment.
 
Kirkhill said:
The poor point I was alluding to was that the Danes seem to be demonstrating a degree of flexibility in thinking (not just in the capabilities of their vessels but in the manner in which they approach problems) that I find admirable and would suggest that we consider emulating.
I'm not so sure about that.  It is this kind of general purpose, do everything in one hull thinking, that resulted in JSS ver 1 and the resulting cancellations due to cost.

I'm sort of betwixt and between on the Absalon class flexible support ships.

While an interesting concept - some sort of a combination between a frigate and support / command ship - it is another jack of all trades and master of none.  Too slow and under-manned to be a frigate (damage control teams, boarding party, combat operators to analyze and fuse data, etc), not capable of acting as an AOR, too small to be an amphib, etc.  Effectively the Danes have built a corvette/OPV type vessel at fairly high cost.

Where it excels is in counter-piracy type ops, Haiti relief ops, etc.  Good staff facilities including C2, and frigate levels of self-defence weapons.  I think it would be a useful ship but just not at the cost of a general purpose frigate or AOR.  Just my  :2c:
 
Ex-Dragoon said:
I never said to use it as either but it brings a bit of versatility to the table that we would be foolish to ignore.

I'd argue that it brings some very limited capabilities to the table that you would be foolish to take at face value.
 
cobbler said:
I'd argue that it brings some very limited capabilities to the table that you would be foolish to take at face value.

Sadly, Very limited is better then nothing at all.

I wasn't sold on them until I had a chance to look around hence my change in viewpoint.
 
Canadian Navy’s ships risk being banned from foreign ports
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/canadian-navys-ships-risk-being-banned-from-foreign-ports/article1663709/

Bill Curry

Ottawa — From Friday's Globe and Mail Published on Thursday, Aug. 05, 2010 9:15PM EDT Last updated on Friday, Aug. 06, 2010 3:44AM EDT

The Canadian Navy’s two aging oil tanker supply ships risk being barred from docking at European and American ports over environmental concerns, warns an internal cabinet-level briefing note.

The document, obtained by The Globe and Mail, warns the possible bans may force the tankers to stay near home and impact the navy’s ability to act independently around the world.

The single-hulled tankers are more than 40 years old and are out of step with international efforts to phase out such ships in favour of double-hulled vessels that are less likely to cause a toxic spill. The global movement to ban single-hull tankers set timelines after the devastating Exxon Valdez spill in 1989, which until this year’s BP leak in the Gulf of Mexico was the worst oil spill in American history.

The Conservative government announced in July that it will spend $2.6-billion to replace the navy’s two auxiliary oil replenishment vessels – the HMCS Protecteur and the HMCS Preserver (currently docked for maintenance) – with two or three new joint support ships, which will be double-hulled. However, the first new ship is not expected until at least 2017. The internal document indicates there will be problems between now and then.

“These vessels are single-hulled, which violates most international environmental standards,” states a February, 2010 briefing note provided to Treasury Board president Stockwell Day by his senior public servant, Michelle d’Auray.

Mr. Day, who is responsible for finding savings to tackle the federal deficit, had requested a briefing on planned spending by the navy.

The note, which indicates it is based on discussions with National Defence officials, warns exemptions for single-hulled vessels are about to expire.

 
I knew this was coming but thought we had a little bit more time. Well done Government of Canada for continually dragging your heels on this issue!!
 
I hate to say this but: There are pretty good "off-the-shelf" pure AOR designs out there ... and U.S. Shipyards that could have two or three wrapped and delivered to Halifax in 18 months. (I won't mention "for much less than 2.9 $B" - OK I'll mention it :) ).
 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
I hate to say this but: There are pretty good "off-the-shelf" pure AOR designs out there ... and U.S. Shipyards that could have two or three wrapped and delivered to Halifax in 18 months. (I won't mention "for much less than 2.9 $B" - OK I'll mention it :) ).
HMAS Sirius is a basic tanker purchased by the Royal Australian Navy and converted into a fleet replenishment vessel in 2006.  According to Canadian Naval Review,The cost of buying this ship and converting it for naval service was about $100 million (US).
 
Ex-Dragoon said:
I knew this was coming but thought we had a little bit more time. Well done Government of Canada for continually dragging your heels on this issue!!

This has been coming for 10 years or more.  We were asked not to come back to some places 10 years ago.  I am surprised it has taken this long to come home to roost.

Purchasing off the shelf offshore is something I have personally wished for for some time now.  I know it would be great to give the work locally, but we cannot get off the pot in time to make it happen in Canada.  Canada first is great for domestic consumption especially if you are in politics, but as a possible end user I don't give a damn where it comes from as long as it comes quickly and it works.  The 10+ years I have been waiting so far is too long IMO.  But I don't hold the purse strings or dangly/jangly round things of those who do hold the purse so I guess I'll just have to forget about it.  Whatever will come down the pipe will be too late for me to see in service.
 
For a purely political perspective it may be possible to do something along the lines of the HMAS Sirius, provided (1) a Canadian shipyard did the refit work and (2) it was announced simultaneously with another major shipbuilding contract - providing a distraction.
 
The one thing it lacks is a hangar and if we sail as part of a Canadian Task Group where would send a surface combatant's helo for maintenance?
 
Perhaps get a pair of COTS tankers to convert to AOR's, and then let the JSS shift from an AOR with a hobby, to a Support ship with the ability to refuel, support helos, bring RORO cargo, etc.

If we dealt with the immediate need for new tankers through a COTS buy, then the JSS can have all the time it needs...

NS
 
  I have never been able to figure out what successive governments of different political stripes see in the JSS concept . It didn't make any sense to almost 20 years ago when I first saw early concepts of the the JSS. And It makes even less today.If they are trying to save money it doesn't do that . it they're trying to add capabilities it also fails to do that. In short it brings very litle to that table for a great deal more the an AOR
 
Latest from DND, my comments below:

Joint Sometime Ship (JSS): At least five years late
http://unambig.com/joint-sometime-ship-jss-at-least-five-years-late/

...at least the government is finally willing to consider buying an existing foreign design in order to save money (which they finally agreed to do a year ago for some new Canadian Coast Guard vessels). And to ensure the blinking things work.

Some two years ago our Navy actually looked at Dutch plans for a similar type of ship, but nothing came then of that exploration. And even the Dutch will have the hulls of their new ships built in Romania to save money...

Although our government is now open to foreign designs it still insists–as would any other Canadian govenment–that the construction be done in Canada. Pork. Pork. Porc.

Meanwhile the rather smarter Aussies have bought Spanish designs for new naval ships–with some construction also being done in Spain...

Mark
Ottawa
 
Found this article interesting it is what the French are planning too build
http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=114066

It seems to have everything the Canadian Government wants in our future ship.

Here is the English translation If the page comes up in French for you.

Proposed export and to replace the current tanker Navy, Brave is the new concept of logistics building designed by DCNS. Particularly versatile, this ship must meet a wide range of missions, ranging from fuel supplies (ships and aircraft) to the repair of equipment, possibly via the transport of soldiers and armored vehicles. Long by 195 meters and a width of 28 meters, displays a Brave displacement of 30,000 tons. It is therefore much larger and heavier than the oil-tanker Meuse and buildings of command and supply Var, Marne and Somme (157 meters, 18,000 tons).
The new logistics building DCNS aims to be very versatile and reconfigurable same. To this end it provides a modular rear area. As required, it can be used to store materials or hosting workshops. Indeed, the future French ships should not only replace the PR and the BCR, but also compensate for the disarmament, in 2009, building mobile support Loire and workshop building Jules Verne. The new BL will thus be able to have facilities capable of making repairs.
The rear area of the Brave has also been designed to serve at the reception of troops and equipment, including vehicles. Boarding and landing would be achieved through a side door. Compared to existing vessels, aircraft capabilities would be enhanced with a platform for the simultaneous implementation of two helicopters (and a double shed). Brave is, again, with a headquarters large enough for him to host a staff and run an operation.

Increased capacity

In terms of pure supply, the building must be able to provide naval forces it supports fuel, food and ammunition. Bunker design study for the Navy can reach 15,000 m3. As is already the case today, Brave should be able, at the same time, the replenishment of two ships alongside. It has to do two gantries and refueling capabilities for transferring heavy loads greater than those of existing boats. Behind the block bridge, two cranes to handle containers can be housed in a specific space.
To meet the international maritime regulations, Brave is a double-hulled ship designed to incorporate standards such as IMO MARPOL (pollution).
In late 2009, the Directorate General of Armament launched a scoping study to determine the needs and characteristics that will result in program called Fleet Logistics. " According to forecasts by the DGA, the construction of the first vessel to replace the Meuse, is expected in 2015 for delivery two years later. The target is for the moment, four units.

Serious competition for export

In addition to the domestic market, which could be the subject of cooperation with Great Britain, DCNS is also exported. Many Marines have, indeed, need to renew their fleet logistics buildings. In this regard, the competition will be severe for the French group, which did not deliver any ship of its kind since 1987 (the Somme in 1990, was conducted by shipyards of La Seyne-sur-Mer). In Europe, DCNS faces several competitors, starting with Italy's Fincantieri, which is currently completing two oil tanker for India. The Spanish Navantia is also positioning itself internationally with the Cantabria, just delivered to the Armada. While in Britain, BAE Systems, BMT Defence Services have submitted their design to the Royal Navy Aegir Damen Schelde Naval Shipbuilding sold its hybrid design of JSS (both tanker and ship projection) to the Dutch navy, awaiting delivery of the Karel Doorman in 2014. Finally, as this type of vessel is carried out according to civilian standards, Asian manufacturers are also serious competitors. Daewoo and Hyundai have, moreover, not hesitate to make an offer under the Military Afloat Reach program and Sustainability (MARS) in the UK

 
If I read the english translation correctly she has almost the same liquid cargo capacity as the PRO/PRE presently has.  Seems to be more of the same idea as the JSS.  I am still not keen on a swiss army knife ship, but as I have said before, anything new wouild  be welcome and better than status quo.
 
The US Navy getting a new supply ship:

The USNS Charles Drew -- the new 689-foot dry cargo ship that bears the name of the pioneering surgeon who created large, life-saving blood banks during World War II -- will achieve a milestone early Wednesday when the vessel leaves the NASSCO/General Dynamics yard for its first extensive sea trials.

Workers are scheduled to remove the $500 million ship's mooring lines at 7:45 a.m., enabling the Charles Drew to sail out of San Diego Harbor for 40 hours of rigorous testing far offshore, the company says. Two of Drew's children, Charlene Drew Jarvis and Sylvia Drew Ivie, are scheduled to be aboard for the departure.

"Preparing the ship to go to sea for the first time creates a sense of urgency, passion, determination and pride among the sea trial riders that would rival any team preparing for 'the big game,' " said Jason Mitchell, who oversaw the building of the ship. "This is the week that we’ve been preparing for over the last 20 months (since construction started). This is where the 'rubber meets the road.'"

The ship is one of the last Lewis and Clark-class cargo ships that NASSCO is scheduled to build for the Navy. The company will launch the USNS Washington Chambers in September, and it recently began work on a vessel that will be known as the Medgar Evers. And it will start on yet another Nayy cargo ship this fall. i]

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/jun/15/grsq-huge-nassco-ship-ready-sea-trials/

 
Logically shameless, or challenged?

Canadian shipyards can’t competitively build large civilian vessels–but the government insists they build naval ones
http://unambig.com/canadian-shipyards-cant-competitively-build-large-civilian-vessels-but-the-government-insists-they-build-naval-ones/

Mark
Ottawa
 
Colin P said:
The US Navy getting a new supply ship:

The USNS Charles Drew -- the new 689-foot dry cargo ship that bears the name of the pioneering surgeon who created large, life-saving blood banks during World War II -- will achieve a milestone early Wednesday when the vessel leaves the NASSCO/General Dynamics yard for its first extensive sea trials.

Workers are scheduled to remove the $500 million ship's mooring lines at 7:45 a.m., enabling the Charles Drew to sail out of San Diego Harbor for 40 hours of rigorous testing far offshore, the company says. Two of Drew's children, Charlene Drew Jarvis and Sylvia Drew Ivie, are scheduled to be aboard for the departure.

"Preparing the ship to go to sea for the first time creates a sense of urgency, passion, determination and pride among the sea trial riders that would rival any team preparing for 'the big game,' " said Jason Mitchell, who oversaw the building of the ship. "This is the week that we’ve been preparing for over the last 20 months (since construction started). This is where the 'rubber meets the road.'"

The ship is one of the last Lewis and Clark-class cargo ships that NASSCO is scheduled to build for the Navy. The company will launch the USNS Washington Chambers in September, and it recently began work on a vessel that will be known as the Medgar Evers. And it will start on yet another Nayy cargo ship this fall. i]

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/jun/15/grsq-huge-nassco-ship-ready-sea-trials/
20 MONTHS ! From start to end product in the water You would think we're we planning a go it alone Mars expedition with all the planning  and money  and time and what do we have to show for  it all?.......Nothing! well except for a lot of paper.
The procurement system in this country seems to broke beyond repair .
How did we get here? More importantly how do we fix this?
 
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